Magus Mortem
LN Med humanoid aasimar emberkin (native outsider) Lvl Flowing Monk 2, Diviner Wizard 7
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60ft; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+3 Dex +2 Wis +4 armr +1 dodg) {Mag Armr +4 armr, Abltv Barr DR NL 5/- & DR 5->NL}{Prot Arrw DR 10 rng/magic [70], Blur 20% miss !Precsn dmg}
hp 45 (2d8 +7d6 +7 fvd cls) {Scr:Fls Life}
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +12
DefQ EnrgRst +5/acid, +5/cold, +5/elec {Rst Enrg 2@7 20/fire}
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee IUS tmplswd & flry (full): +1(+1)once; +6, +6(1d8+2 c19*2 S) mnk, trip(atk, provoke), & 1 tch from active touch atk spell.
IUS nunchaku & flry (full): +1(+1)once; +6, +6(1d6+2 c20*2 B) mnk, disarm(atk, provoke), & (see above).
HtH tmplswd (std): +7(1d8+3 c19*2 S) mnk, trip, & (see above).
HtH nunchaku (std): +7(1d6+3 c20*2 B) mnk, disarm, & (see above).
IUS (std): +7(1d6+3 c20*2) & (see above).
Rng: hvy crssbow {2hnd} +7(1d10 c19*2 P) Rng 120ft. Load: full provoke.
Rng: obsid dagger +7(1d4+2 c19*2 P|S) Rng 10ft, thrown, fragile.
AtkQ:
Spell-like Abilities (CL 9, Conc+16 +2 cast Def & may reroll)
Danc Lgt:K0 3/d.
Pyrotech:T2 (Will/Fort DC 19), 1/d.
Space 5ft; Reach 5ft {10ft w Longarm} Humanoid Ht 72”, Wt 185lbs.
STATISTICS
Str 14(+2){12}, Dex 16(+3){14}, Con 10, Int 24(+7){20}, Wis 14(+2), Cha 10. Note Starting 20pt buy [12,14,10,16(+2),14,8(+2)].
BAB +4, Str +2; CMB +13 (+2|+4|+6 Repstn & no AoO); CMD +28 {+2 monk}(+2 vs Repstn)
Fv’d Clss: Wiz.
Traits Magical Lineage(Mag) Shk Grsp, Wayang Spellhunter(Rgn) Ear-Prc Scrm.
Feats 1 Dodge, M1 IUSBNS(1d6), Mb Imp Repstn(no reqs) !AoO, +2 CMB Repstn +2 CMD vs Repstn. 3 Varisian tattoo(K) +1 CL K & danc lgts(Sp) 3/d, W1 Spl Fcs(K)Scribe Scroll. 5 Reach Spell MM(+1->+3)Rng[tch, cls, med, lng]. 7 Persistent Spell MM(+2) roll save twice to fail, W5 Knw is Power +Int to CMB, CMD, Str to break/lift obj. 9 Intensify Spell MM.
Skills(67 ranks) Acro +11(5), Apprs +11(1), Clmb +(), Crft[Alchemy +17(7)], Esc Art +8(2), Fly +13(7), Intm +(), Knw[Arcn +17(7){Cnstr,Drgn,MagBst}, Dngn +11(1){Abrr,Ooze}, Engr +11(1), Geog +11(1), Hist +19(1)[HD], Locl +19(1)[HD]{Hmn}, Natr +11(1){Anml,Fey,MonHmn,Plnt,Vrmn}, Nobl +11(1), Plns+13(1+2){Outsdr}, Rlgn +11(1){UnD}], Ling +11(1), Prcp +14(9), Pfrm[ +()], Prof[Herbalist +6(1)], Ride +11(5), SnsMtv +8(3), Splcrft +19(7+2), Stlth +9(3), Srvl +(), Swim +().
Languages common(taldan), celestial, anc. azlanti, anc. osiriani, draconic, elven, kelish, tian, HB[ignan, terran].
Mag Itm Body Slots Biped[hands] [armor, belt, body, chest, eyes, feet, hands, head, headband, neck, ring(2), shield, shoulders, wrist].
Racial Modifiers Peri: +2 Int & Cha, native outsider, darkvision 60ft, +2 Knw Pln & Splcrft, pyrotech(Sp) at Lvl 1/d, ER 5[acid, cold, elec].
Armor/Weapon Proficiency: brass knuckles (1d3)mnk, cestus (1d4)mnk, club (1d6), crossbow (light (1d8) R80 or heavy (1d10) R120), dagger (1d4) R10, handaxe (1d6), javelin (1d6) R30, kama (1d6)mnk, nunchaku (1d6)mnk, quarterstaff (1d6,1d6)mnk, sai (1d4)mnk, shortspear (1d6) R20, short sword (1d6), shuriken (1d2) R10, siangham (1d6)mnk, sling (1d4) R50, spear (1d8) R20, temple sword (1d8)mnk. No armor or shields.
> AC bonus(Ex): unarmored(no armor, no shield) and unencumbered(no med or hvy load) (+Wis +0 frm Lvl) to AC and CMD.
> Flurry of Blows(Ex): Full Atk +1 atk with IUS/Monk wpn at (+0,+0) as if TWF feat at monk Lvl otherwise normal BAB.
> Unarmed Strike(Clss): gain IUS at Str for lethal or NL(nonlethal)(incl Grapple) dmg, note sml(1d4) med(1d6) lrg(1d8).
> Redirection(Ex): reposition(std actn) or trip(melee atk) CM as immd actn against foe that attacks and you threaten 2/d. Tgt sickened 1r Rflx 13{10+1+2} for dur/2. +2 CM & DC if foe PwrAtk|Chg, +4 if both. !Stunning Fist.
> Evasion(Ex): lgt|no armr, AoE atk with Rflx for dmg/2 on save does 0 dmg.
> Unbalancing Counter(Ex): successful AoO render foe flat-foot’d until end of monk’s turn Rflx 13{10+1+2} neg. !Mnk2 bns feat.
> Wizard Diviner(!E!N) BO amulet.
> Forewarned(Su): act in surprise, +(wiz/2) Init.
> Diviner's Fortune(Sp): std actn tch +(wiz/2) insgt on all atk rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws 1r 10/d.
>- Scry Adept(Sp) @wiz 8: perm Det Scry efct & trgts of Scry are 1 step more familiar (Very Famil -10 to sv).
Equipment $66250:
> ElyBz TmplSwd $1330 Hrd:10 HP:5 +0(+1) vs MagBst & MonHmn then +1(+1)vs specific for 1d with Hollow pommel $5 & Fls Btm scabbard $45, mw cold iron nunchaku $304 Hrd:10 HP:2, mw cryptstone nunchaku $502 Hrd:10 HP:2 +0(+1) vs UnD & incorp (dmg/2),
> Blt Phy +2 Str +2 Dex[belt] $10000, Heavy crossbow $50 & 10 cld iron bolts $2, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes[body] $3000 +1(+1) for 1 (IUS|Natl) Atk/r, [chst], [eyes], [feet], [hand], [head], HdBnd Vast Int +4 [hdbnd] $16000, Amulet Spl Cunning[neck] $(1000/2) prepare +3 SplLvls, [ring1], [ring2], Cloak Rst +2 [shldr] 4000, Spellguard Bracers[wrst] $5000 +2 Conc cast Def & reroll{better} 3/d.
> Wand: Vanish 1@1[45]{L-SlWS}, Obs Mist 1@1[45]{R-SlWS}, Hgtn Aware 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Ill Calm 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Infrnl Heal 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Long Arm 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Prot Evil 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Rdc Per 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Shield 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Blur 2@3[25]{Bndlr1}.
> Pot & Alch: Cure Lgt Wnd 1@1[4] $200 {scabbard, pommel, (2)Bndlr2}, Air Bubl 1@1 & Pot Spng $52, Oil Blss Wpn 1@1[3] $150, Oil Keen Edge 3@5[2] $750, HolyWtr{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $50, Alch Fire [2]{(1)Bndlr2} $40, Acid [2] $20, Antiplague{(1)Bndlr2} $100, Antitoxin{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $100, Stillgut{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $100, Antiemetic snuff [2] $100, Sooth syrup [2] $50, Smell Salt{Bndlr2} $25, Sun Rod [3] $6, Vrmn Repel [2] $10, KNO3{fire +1 dmg}[5]{SCP} $5, Ethanol{call & sum +1r dur}[5]{SCP} $15, Myr & cld iron{A +1 CL & dspl}[2]{SCP} $14, Pllt Blst: cldiron[2] silver[2]{SCP} $140, Bld Stntl{H}: mandrake[2]$50 & velvet bat $2, patchwork guard dog $1, stuffed raven $10, quilted & beaded rhamphorhynchus $5, fur racoon $2, Zey Focus: mw Thv tool{SCP} $100, diamond dust{SCP} $250.
> Scroll: Comp Lang 1@1[4], Endur Ele 1@1[2], Hide Weapon 1@1 stow wpn in arm [2], Rechg Innate 1@1 regain 1 use of 0th & 1st racial SLAs [4], Sure Cast 1@1 +5CL vs SR [4], True Strk 1@1 +20 inst & no conceal next atk within 1r [4], Air Step 2@3 ignore dfclt terr <1ft & do not trigger wt trap & -10 vs tracking [1], B Con 2@3[2], Invis 2@3[1], Dly Poi 2@3[2], Fls Life 2@3 1d10+3 tmp [2], Lsr Restor 2@3 cast:3r [2], Mag Wpn Grt 3@5 +2 [2], 2050 Fly 3@5 [2], Phan Steed 3@8 AC18 HP15 Spd:80 sandy/muddy/swampy [2], Invis Grt 4@9[2].
> Gear (mundane equip): (2) obsidian dagger $2 fragile Hrd:5 HP:2, backpack(Bkpk), (2) bandolier(Bndlr1|2) $1, (2) spring-loaded wrist sheath(L|R-SlWS) $10, belt pouch(BP) $1, spell component pouch(SCP), signal whistle $0.8, mirror $10, measuring cord $1, (4) wd holy symbol(abadar, irori, nethys, pharasma) $4, canteen $2, adventuring outfit, cash 3PP 10GP 21SP 12CP.
> Heavy Warhorse “Wěndìng” Init +4, low-lgt, scent, Percp +8; AC 15 Tch 13 Fltft 11; HP 19; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +3; Spd 50ft; Melee bite & 2 hooves +5(1d4+5); tricks[attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel] $300, Mil Saddle +2 stay in saddle $20, Saddlebags $4, bit & bridle of tricks(3)[attack(anything), exclusive, throw rider] $900, 4d feed $0.2, dandy brush $0.2, handaxe $6, (2) cld iron bear trap $8, crowbar $2, bow saw $0.04, folding shovel $10, 50ft silk rope $10, grappling hook $1, bedroll $0.1, (2)blanket $1, ink $8, an inkpen $0.1, (10) blk/red candles $0.1, (10) colored chalk $0.1, 50ft string $0.01, a mess kit $0.2, soap 0.5lb $0.01, spell component pouch $5, (2) sack $0.2, trail rations (7) $3.5, (2) waterskin $2, weapon cord (2) $0.2, whetstone $0.02, (1+2)spellbooks $30.
Spellbook(_memorized): 4,7,6,4+1,3 (CL=7 +(1CL & +1 DC)K, Conc 14 +2 cast Def & may reroll)
Zero:(21) _Acid Splsh, _Det Mag:D, _Mssg, _Lgt:K, etc. First:(26) Break, Coin Shot, Clr Spry, Comp Lang:D, Crftr Fortune, Dsgs Self, _>EarPrc Scrm:K<, Expd Rtrt, Hgtn Awrns:D, Ident:D, Ill Calm, Infrnl Heal, Long Arm, _Mage Armr, _Mag Mssl:K, Obs Mist, Prot Evil, Rdc Per, Shld, _,_>Shk Grsp:K<, _Snowball:K, Sum Mon 1, Sure Cast:D, _Tru Strk:D, Vanish, Unsn Srvt.
Second:(25) Air Step, Acd Arrw, AZey Focus:D, [!]Ash Path, B Con, Blur, B Str, Cloud Seasic, Creat Pit, Drkvis, _Det Thgt:D, _Elem Tch:K, Fls Life:N, Frgd Tch:K, _Gltrdst, Invis, Loc Obj:D, _Mir Img, _Rst Enrg, Rope Trck, Scrh Ray:K, See Invis:D, Ston Call, Sum Mon 2, Web, _ShkGrsp:K & Rch.
Third:(20) _Abltv Barr, Aqu Orb, _Arcn Sgt:D, Bttr Blst:K, _Blink, Blod Sentnl, _Call Void:K, Claud/voy:D, Fireball:K, Fly, Haste, Lgtnbolt:K, Mag Wpn Grt, Pllt Blst, Phan Steed, Poly Famil, Seek Thgt:D, Shrink Itm, Slow, Stnk Cld. _EarPrc Scrm:K & Prstnt.
Fourth(9). _Arcn Eye:D, _Ball Lgtn:K, _Drgn Brth:K, Emerg Frc Sph:K, Invis Grt, Scry:D, Shdw Step, Stonskin, W Fire:K.
===
I've built him along Org Play rules with one spellbook exception. The extra cash comes from spending Prestige in the game otherwise it'd be 46000gp so he's pretty equivalent for 9th level in that setting.
He's designed to take on spellcasters one on one with Call of the Void and a multitude of spells & options to get him there and cover his posterior. It's basically a wizard with some monk prowess. Taking Knowledge is Power is not the best choice but it does give him a good CM for Reposition, Trip, and Dirty Trick(no SR or spell fancyness there!).
I think it's a good example of a multiclass wizard and going past 9th level is easier than getting there.
Azothath wrote: I've built him along Org Play rules with one spellbook exception. The extra cash comes from spending Prestige in the game otherwise it'd be 46000gp so he's pretty equivalent for 9th level in that setting.
He's designed to take on spellcasters one on one with Call of the Void and a multitude of spells & options to get him there and cover his posterior. It's basically a wizard with some monk prowess. Taking Knowledge is Power is not the best choice but it does give him a good CM for Reposition, Trip, and Dirty Trick(no SR or spell fancyness there!).
I think it's a good example of a multiclass wizard and going past 9th level is easier than getting there.
I really do not see what benefit you gain from multiclassing into monk. Your WIS isn't high enough to be better than Mage Armour and/or Shield. Your BAB isn't good enough for combat, Monk with only 2 levels doesn't give you anything in the action economy, and your metamagic feats suggest all you will be doing is casting.
Why is this better than just a straight Wizard? 2 More levels of Wizard gets you level 5 spells.
Azothath wrote: Magus Mortem
LN Med humanoid aasimar emberkin (native outsider) Lvl Flowing Monk 2, ...
inspiration from character concept Forgetten Realms Mage-killer Prestige class but without the deific backing.
In the same style (Mage-killer) using a human and focused ability scores. Knowledge is Power could be swapped for Preferred Spell in a more standard caster centric build but keeping it here so you can see how it works out. and yes, a hyphen in the thread title would have helped
===
Magnus Mactator
LN Med humanoid human Lvl Flowing Monk 2, Diviner Wizard 7
Init +6; Senses ; Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+3 Dex +1 Wis +4 armr +1 dodg) {Mag Armr +4 armr, Abltv Barr DR NL 5/- & DR 5->NL}{Prot Arrw DR 10 rng/magic [70], Blur 20% miss !Precsn dmg}
hp 47 (2d8 +7d6 +9 fvd cls) {Scr:Fls Life}
Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +11
DefQ {Rst Enrg 2@7 20/fire}
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee IUS tmplswd & flry (full): +1(+1)once; +4, +4(1d8 c19*2 S) mnk, trip(atk, provoke), & 1 tch atk.
IUS nunchaku & flry (full): +1(+1)once; +7, +7(1d6 c20*2 B) mnk, disarm(atk, provoke), & 1 tch atk.
HtH tmplswd (std): +5(1d8+1 c19*2 S) mnk, trip, & 1 tch atk.
HtH nunchaku (std): +8(1d6+1 c20*2 B) mnk, disarm, & 1 tch atk.
IUS (std): +5(1d6+1 c20*2) & 1 tch atk.
Rng: hvy crssbow {2hnd} +7(1d10 c19*2 P) Rng 120ft. Load: full provoke.
Rng: obsid dagger +7(1d4+2 c19*2 P|S) Rng 10ft, thrown, fragile.
AtkQ:
Spell-like Abilities (CL 9, Conc+17 +2 cast Def & may reroll)
Danc Lgt:K0 3/d.
Space 5ft; Reach 5ft {10ft w Longarm} Humanoid Ht 72”, Wt 185lbs.
STATISTICS
Str 10{8}, Dex 16(+3){14}, Con 10, Int 26(+8){22}, Wis 12(+1), Cha 8(-1). Note Starting 20pt buy {focused}[8,14,10,18(+2),12,8].
BAB +4, Str +0; CMB +12 (+2|+4|+6 Repstn & no AoO)(+3 w lgt wpn on dsrm, sndr, trip); CMD +26 {+1 monk}(+2 vs Repstn)
Fv’d Clss: Wiz.
Traits Magical Lineage(Mag) Shk Grsp, Wayang Spellhunter(Rgn) Ear-Prc Scrm.
Feats hmn Wpn Finesse, 1 Dodge, M1 IUSBNS(1d6), Mb Imp Repstn(no reqs) !AoO, +2 CMB Repstn +2 CMD vs Repstn. 3 Varisian tattoo(K) +1 CL K & danc lgts(Sp) 3/d, W1 Spl Fcs(K)Scribe Scroll. 5 Reach Spell MM(+1->+3)Rng[tch, cls, med, lng]. 7 Persistent Spell MM(+2) roll save twice to fail, W5 Knw is Power +Int to CMB, CMD, Str to break/lift obj. 9 Intensify Spell MM.
Skills(76 ranks) Acro +11(5), Apprs +12(1), Clmb +(), Crft[Alchemy +18(7)], Esc Art +8(2), Fly +13(7), Intm +(), Knw[Arcn +18(7){Cnstr,Drgn,MagBst}, Dngn +12(1){Abrr,Ooze}, Engr +12(1), Geog +12(1), Hist +20(1)[HD], Locl +20(1)[HD]{Hmn}, Natr +12(1){Anml,Fey,MonHmn,Plnt,Vrmn}, Nobl +12(1), Plns+12(1){Outsdr}, Rlgn +12(1){UnD}], Ling +12(1), Prcp +13(9), Pfrm[ +()], Prof[Herbalist +9(5)], Ride +11(5), SnsMtv +9(5), Splcrft +21(9), Stlth +10(4), Srvl +(), Swim +().
Languages common(taldan), celestial, anc. azlanti, anc. osiriani, draconic, elven, kelish, tian, thassilonian, HB[ignan, terran].
Mag Itm Body Slots Biped[hands] [armor, belt, body, chest, eyes, feet, hands, head, headband, neck, ring(2), shield, shoulders, wrist].
Racial Modifiers +2 one Abil, Feat, 2 Fvd Cls.
Armor/Weapon Proficiency: brass knuckles (1d3)mnk, cestus (1d4)mnk, club (1d6), crossbow (light (1d8) R80 or heavy (1d10) R120), dagger (1d4) R10, handaxe (1d6), javelin (1d6) R30, kama (1d6)mnk, nunchaku (1d6)mnk, quarterstaff (1d6,1d6)mnk, sai (1d4)mnk, shortspear (1d6) R20, short sword (1d6), shuriken (1d2) R10, siangham (1d6)mnk, sling (1d4) R50, spear (1d8) R20, temple sword (1d8)mnk. No armor or shields.
AC bonus(Ex): unarmored(no armor, no shield) and unencumbered(no med or hvy load) (+Wis +0 frm Lvl) to AC and CMD.
Flurry of Blows(Ex): Full Atk +1 atk with IUS/Monk wpn at (+0,+0) as if TWF feat at monk Lvl otherwise normal BAB.
Unarmed Strike(Clss): gain IUS at Str for lethal or NL(nonlethal)(incl Grapple) dmg, note sml(1d4) med(1d6) lrg(1d8). Always use a wpn due to Wpn Fnss.
Redirection(Ex): reposition(std actn) or trip(melee atk) CM as immd actn against foe that attacks and you threaten 2/d. Tgt sickened 1r Rflx 13{10+1+2} for dur/2. +2 CM & DC if foe PwrAtk|Chg, +4 if both. !Stunning Fist.
Evasion(Ex): lgt|no armr, AoE atk with Rflx for dmg/2 on save does 0 dmg.
Unbalancing Counter(Ex): successful AoO render foe flat-foot’d until end of monk’s turn Rflx 13{10+1+2} neg. !Mnk2 bns feat.
Forewarned(Su): act in surprise, +(wiz/2) Init.
Diviner's Fortune(Sp): std actn tch +(wiz/2) insgt on all atk rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws 1r 10/d.
- Scry Adept(Sp) @wiz 8: perm Det Scry efct & trgts of Scry are 1 step more familiar (Very Famil -10 to sv).
Equipment $66250:
ElyBz TmplSwd $1330 Hrd:10 HP:5 +0(+1) vs MagBst & MonHmn then +1(+1)vs specific for 1d with Hollow pommel $5 & Fls Btm scabbard $45, mw cold iron nunchaku $304 Hrd:10 HP:2, mw cryptstone nunchaku $502 Hrd:10 HP:2 +0(+1) vs UnD & incorp (dmg/2), Blt Phy +2 Str +2 Dex[belt] $10000, Heavy crossbow $50 & 10 cld iron bolts $2, Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes[body] $3000 +1(+1) for 1 (IUS|Natl) Atk/r, [chst], [eyes], [feet], [hand], [head], HdBnd Vast Int +4 [hdbnd] $16000, Amulet Spl Cunning[neck] $(1000/2) prepare +3 SplLvls, [ring1], [ring2], Cloak Rst +2 [shldr] 4000, Spellguard Bracers[wrst] $5000 +2 Conc cast Def & reroll{better} 3/d.
Wand: Vanish 1@1[45]{L-SlWS}, Obs Mist 1@1[45]{R-SlWS}, Hgtn Aware 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Ill Calm 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Infrnl Heal 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Long Arm 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Prot Evil 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Rdc Per 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Shield 1@1[30]{Bndlr1}, Blur 2@3[25]{Bndlr1}.
Pot & Alch: Cure Lgt Wnd 1@1[4] $200 {scabbard, pommel, (2)Bndlr2}, Air Bubl 1@1 & Pot Spng $52, Oil Blss Wpn 1@1[3] $150, Oil Keen Edge 3@5[2] $750, HolyWtr{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $50, Alch Fire [2]{(1)Bndlr2} $40, Acid [2] $20, Antiplague{(1)Bndlr2} $100, Antitoxin{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $100, Stillgut{(1)Bndlr2} [2] $100, Antiemetic snuff [2] $100, Sooth syrup [2] $50, Smell Salt{Bndlr2} $25, Sun Rod [3] $6, Vrmn Repel [2] $10, KNO3{fire +1 dmg}[5]{SCP} $5, Ethanol{call & sum +1r dur}[5]{SCP} $15, Myr & cld iron{A +1 CL & dspl}[2]{SCP} $14, Pllt Blst: cldiron[2] silver[2]{SCP} $140, Bld Stntl{H}: mandrake[2]$50 & velvet bat $2, patchwork guard dog $1, stuffed raven $10, quilted & beaded rhamphorhynchus $5, fur racoon $2, Zey Focus: mw Thv tool{SCP} $100, diamond dust{SCP} $250.
Scroll: Comp Lang 1@1[4], Endur Ele 1@1[2], Hide Weapon 1@1 stow wpn in arm [2], Rechg Innate 1@1 regain 1 use of 0th & 1st racial SLAs [4], Sure Cast 1@1 +5CL vs SR [4], True Strk 1@1 +20 inst & no conceal next atk within 1r [4], Air Step 2@3 ignore dfclt terr <1ft & do not trigger wt trap & -10 vs tracking [1], B Con 2@3[2], Invis 2@3[1], Dly Poi 2@3[2], Fls Life 2@3 1d10+3 tmp [2], Lsr Restor 2@3 cast:3r [2], Mag Wpn Grt 3@5 +2 [2], 2050 Fly 3@5 [2], Phan Steed 3@8 AC18 HP15 Spd:80 sandy/muddy/swampy [2], Invis Grt 4@9[2].
Gear (mundane equip): (2) obsidian dagger $2 fragile Hrd:5 HP:2, backpack(Bkpk), (2) bandolier(Bndlr1|2) $1, (2) spring-loaded wrist sheath(L|R-SlWS) $10, belt pouch(BP) $1, spell component pouch(SCP), signal whistle $0.8, mirror $10, measuring cord $1, (4) wd holy symbol(abadar, irori, nethys, pharasma) $4, canteen $2, adventuring outfit, cash 3PP 25GP 21SP 12CP.
Heavy Warhorse “Velox” Init +4, low-lgt, scent, Percp +8; AC 15 Tch 13 Fltft 11; HP 19; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +3; Spd 50ft; Melee bite & 2 hooves +5(1d4+5); tricks[attack, come, defend, down, guard, heel] $300, Mil Saddle +2 stay in saddle $20, Saddlebags $4, bit & bridle of tricks(3)[attack(anything), exclusive, throw rider] $900, 4d feed $0.2, dandy brush $0.2, handaxe $6, (2) cld iron bear trap $8, crowbar $2, bow saw $0.04, folding shovel $10, 50ft silk rope $10, grappling hook $1, bedroll $0.1, (2)blanket $1, ink $8, an inkpen $0.1, (10) blk/red candles $0.1, (10) colored chalk $0.1, 50ft string $0.01, a mess kit $0.2, soap 0.5lb $0.01, spell component pouch $5, (2) sack $0.2, trail rations (7) $3.5, (2) waterskin $2, weapon cord (2) $0.2, whetstone $0.02, (1+2)spellbooks $30.
Spellbook(_memorized): 4,7,6,4+1,4 (CL=7 +(1CL & +1 DC)K, Conc 15 +2 cast Def & may reroll)
Zero:(21) _Acid Splsh, _Det Mag:D, _Mssg, _Lgt:K, etc. First:(26) Break, Coin Shot, Clr Spry, Comp Lang:D, Crftr Fortune, Dsgs Self, _>EarPrc Scrm:K<, Expd Rtrt, Hgtn Awrns:D, Ident:D, Ill Calm, Infrnl Heal, Long Arm, _Mage Armr, _Mag Mssl:K, Obs Mist, Prot Evil, Rdc Per, Shld, _,_>Shk Grsp:K<, _Snowball:K, Sum Mon 1, Sure Cast:D, _Tru Strk:D, Vanish, Unsn Srvt.
Second:(25) Air Step, Acd Arrw, AZey Focus:D, [!]Ash Path, B Con, Blur, B Str, Cloud Seasic, Creat Pit, Drkvis, _Det Thgt:D, _Elem Tch:K, Fls Life:N, Frgd Tch:K, _Gltrdst, Invis, Loc Obj:D, _Mir Img, _Rst Enrg, Rope Trck, Scrh Ray:K, See Invis:D, Ston Call, Sum Mon 2, Web, _ShkGrsp:K & Rch.
Third:(20) _Abltv Barr, Aqu Orb, _Arcn Sgt:D, Bttr Blst:K, _Blink, Blod Sentnl, _Call Void:K, Claud/voy:D, Fireball:K, Fly, Haste, Lgtnbolt:K, Mag Wpn Grt, Pllt Blst, Phan Steed, Poly Famil, Seek Thgt:D, Shrink Itm, Slow, Stnk Cld. _EarPrc Scrm:K & Prstnt.
Fourth(9). _Arcn Eye:D, _Ball Lgtn:K, _Drgn Brth:K, Emerg Frc Sph:K, _Invis Grt, Scry:D, Shdw Step, Stonskin, W Fire:K.
Azothath wrote: In the same style (Mage-killer) using a human and focused ability scores.
In the same vein as my last reply. What exact benefits do you get from Flowing Monk?
I think it is because you want to use the 'Redirection' ability to "protect" yourself, but in reality, it will likely not work, and you have failed by letting an enemy get next to you in the first place.
You have used multiple feats to try to get this to work, but Improved Initiative would achieve the same thing
Minigiant wrote: Azothath wrote: In the same style (Mage-killer) using a human and focused ability scores.
In the same vein as my last reply. What exact benefits do you get from Flowing Monk?
... thanks for commenting and your analysis but I think you miss the general thrust of this design along with your comments.
The object here is to give the Wizard some martial abilities and minimize the impact of losing two high level spell slots(3-4 spells). It's a tough call as casting is what wizards do.
Being 'better' is a complicated topic as it depends on the build, the player, and the campaign. So there's the build AND the implementation of that build in play along with matters of taste & style (it IS a game after all).
The secondary object is that wizards are best against other spellcasters. Normally it's done at distance via spell exchanges and at high level spamming dazing metamagic. This build gives the character some close and adjacent options that the single classed characters do not have AND increases their saves and defenses against spells. This somewhat follows the theme of the Forgotten Realm prestige class that I linked to. Prestige classes are a general power loss in PF1.
The benefit of CRB Monk is rather obvious and the class works with wizard well. 2 levels nets evasion and it's a common issue for caster-on-caster action and the +3 Rflx only makes it better.
Dipping inevitably delays what is already a 'late blooming' class (wizard 5th level). The 2 levels of monk can support the character through level 5 which is critical to having a character survive their 'slump'. With increasing levels the martial options remain vs full spellcasters(advancing at BAB/2 as this build) but diminish vs martials.
While the improved 'to hit' & flurry is nice, it's really about landing touches via weapons(with enhancements), CM (various moves, imposing penalties & immediate actions), countering spellcasters when adjacent to them and keeping them in your 'penalty zone'{Long arm, reposition, Call of the Void, ongoing touch spells, insight bonuses, high initiative, acting in the surprise round}. The martial CMs work against martial and magical foes and carry through mid levels but lessen at high level where some retraining might be called for. Basically it increases the 'toughness' of the character giving them some martial defenses and options.
I posted this so PF1 or DnD3.5 players can review some options in this post development period. It doesn't carry over to PF2 or DnD5.
{edit} Normally it's done at distance via spell exchanges and at high level spamming dazing metamagic, Flesh to Stone, Feeblemind.
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Azothath wrote:
The object here is to give the Wizard some martial abilities and minimize the impact of losing two high level spell slots(3-4 spells).
But you haven't given yourself any Martial abilities from taking Monk. Your CMB and BAB are exactly the same as if you hadn't multiclassed out of Wizard. A "muscle wizard" is a viable alternative, but your metamagic selections does not suggest a build where you plan on boosting your physical stats to compensate.
Azothath wrote: It's a tough call as casting is what wizards do.
Being 'better' is a complicated topic as it depends on the build, the player, and the campaign. So there's the build AND the implementation of that build in play along with matters of taste & style (it IS a game after all).
It is not complicated. You traded away 5th level spells for nothing. Evasion can be got with a ring (Which could be crafted onto an Arcane Bond).
Azothath wrote: The secondary object is that wizards are best against other spellcasters. Normally it's done at distance via spell exchanges and at high level spamming dazing metamagic. This build gives the character some close and adjacent options that the single classed characters do not have AND increases their saves and defenses against spells. 2 Caster Levels down is not going to make you better versus other spellcasters. Caster level matters, and as I said earlier, I do not see any combat ability in this build.
Azothath wrote: This somewhat follows the theme of the Forgotten Realm prestige class that I linked to. Prestige classes are a general power loss in PF1. It is certainly a cool inspiration for a character
Azothath wrote: The benefit of CRB Monk is rather obvious and the class works with wizard well. 2 levels nets evasion and it's a common issue for caster-on-caster action and the +3 Rflx only makes it better. Benefit - I am really not seeing any. Evasion is cool, but an Arcane Bond (Ring) can cover that, and better reflex save (by 2) can easily be picked up with Lightning Reflexes.
Azothath wrote: Dipping inevitably delays what is already a 'late blooming' class (wizard 5th level). The 2 levels of monk can support the character through level 5 which is critical to having a character survive their 'slump'. With increasing levels the martial options remain vs full spellcasters(advancing at BAB/2 as this build) but diminish vs martials. So early game you survive as a Monk, and then at level 3 when the monsters inevitably get harder you just suffer as you are a level 1 wizard or a level 2 Monk. Avoiding the early slump, to slump the rest of the game is not a plan.
Azothath wrote: While the improved 'to hit' & flurry is nice, it's really about landing touches via weapons(with enhancements), CM (various moves, imposing penalties & immediate actions), countering spellcasters when adjacent to them and keeping them in your 'penalty zone'{Long arm, reposition, Call of the Void, ongoing touch spells, insight bonuses, high initiative, acting in the surprise round}. Level 9 Chained Monks BAB is 7
Level 9 Wizard BAB is 4
Level 2 Monk + Wizard 7 BAB is 4
You are not getting any improvement to hit. People take Weapon Focus for a 'Bad Touch' build, I get it. Spellcasters won't attack you to trigger 'Reposition', they will step away and cast a spell. The only time 'Reposition' will trigger is a martial attacking you, and your CMB will unlikely beat their CMD.
Minigiant wrote: But you haven't given yourself any Martial abilities from taking Monk. Your CMB and BAB are exactly the same as if you hadn't multiclassed out of Wizard. Patently false. Improved unarmed strike, flurry, proficiency with monk weapons, immediate action CM reposition, etc. BAB & CMB specifically are the same due to class progression and feats which is why you highlighted those and ignored the rest to try and bolster a false point.
Minigiant wrote: A "muscle wizard" is a viable alternative, but your metamagic selections does not suggest a build where you plan on boosting your physical stats to compensate. True, there is that magical belt though... what metamagics are you thinking of (review scribed spells in spell books above).
Minigiant wrote: It is not complicated. You traded away 5th level spells for nothing. Patently false again. Proof is self evident.
Minigiant wrote: Evasion can be got with a ring (Which could be crafted onto an Arcane Bond). Are you suggesting changing from Bonded Object amulet and Aegis of Recovery/Amulet of Spell Cunning/Spell Mastery for Ring of Evasion at $25000/2? That is silly as Rings are overpriced and not having it as a bonded object makes the ring a resource hog replacing more effective use of cash. The other option is to do a homebrew crafting of Evasion in an Amulet which I don't think you are suggesting given your later comments. I try to make effective choices given the constraints. I am not presenting this build as having more spells than a single classed school specialist wizard (see the second paragraph in my post above).
If you believe Bonded Object Ring is better just say that and show why. Don't forget to cover the given abilities with other magics and include those in the given cost. I did forget to buy Pearls of Power so there's some balancing that can be done there but you'll need a variable Pearl to replace the Amulet and memorizing more spells is better than recasting ones you already cast after one to several rounds. The Ring of Evasion has level constraints to craft(you cannot get around missing requirements other than crafting feats in Org Play) and would consume $12500 of the $42000 in Equipment as a bonded object. The wands, scrolls, potions etc were bought using Prestige Point equivalence of about $6750 in each category (not available for equipment or bonded object costs) with excess being used for extra scribed spells and mundane gear with a goal of staying under $750 per item (there can be exceptions and I made a few along with going down to fewer spells per scroll for a wider selection {but that's a lower cost option}).
I'm not quite understanding your general objection other than focusing on some specific points and ignoring the bulk of it.
My suggestion is to build a Org Play legal wizard with the same proficiencies and abilities costing it out and see how your build compares. Then present your findings if they are favorable. It would be fair to move some items under $1000-1500 about.
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Azothath wrote: Minigiant wrote: But you haven't given yourself any Martial abilities from taking Monk. Your CMB and BAB are exactly the same as if you hadn't multiclassed out of Wizard. Patently false. Improved unarmed strike, flurry, proficiency with monk weapons, immediate action CM reposition, etc . BAB & CMB specifically are the same due to class progression and feats which is why you highlighted those and ignored the rest to try and bolster a false point. I focused on CMB and BAB because the things I highlighted rely on those, and because the CMB and BAB are so low, they will never achieve anything, and therefore you traded away 5th level spells for things that will never do anything except be there on paper.
Azothath wrote: True, there is that magical belt though... what metamagics are you thinking of (review scribed spells in spell books above). You have Reach, and Persistent spell, which suggests you are trying to get enemy mages to fail saves, which is an entirely valid tactic; being a Monk hinders that. Get Higher Caster Level, Get Higher DC (Spell Foci etc). You don't have the actions in a turn to be punching people and casting spells; if you want that, play a Magus.
Azothath wrote: Are you suggesting changing from Bonded Object amulet and Aegis of Recovery/Amulet of Spell Cunning/Spell Mastery for Ring of Evasion at $25000/2? No (hence why I put it in brackets), I am saying Evasion is the only decent thing you are getting, and that does not outweigh 2 whole spell levels, therefore, getting it another way, such as with magical items, is better.
Azothath wrote: My suggestion is to build a Org Play legal wizard with the same proficiencies and abilities costing it out and see how your build compares. Then present your findings if they are favourable. Level 9 Divination Wizard.
I suggest you get some better system mastery before trying to defend an ill-advised multiclass that honestly stems from a cool concept.
in this thread you are just promoting single classed builds. That's nice. I've run a few diviners in my time. I might know a few things about PF1 *grin*.
I await your equivalent single class build with costs and equivalent abilities, feats & weapon proficiencies.
Azothath wrote: I await your equivalent single class build with costs and equivalent abilities, feats, & weapon proficiencies. Why? My entire argument is that just because you have some abilities on paper, does not mean they are in any way useful to you, nor are they effective if you try to use them.
Minigiant wrote: Azothath wrote: I await your equivalent single class build with costs and equivalent abilities, feats, & weapon proficiencies. Why? My entire argument is that just because you have some abilities on paper, does not mean they are in any way useful to you, nor are they effective if you try to use them. just replying to document post.
Did you consider dipping into mutagenic mauler brawler instead?
+2 to your fort, +2 to your reflex save, mutagen for extra dex is useful. You do get improved unarmed strike, meaning you can get into care style for extra ac with relatively easy.
Seems a better dip then Monk for me, especially since you typcially will just dip 1 level.
Mutagenic Mauler Brawler archetype
no I haven't investigated that class archetype at this time. I have tested Brawler with their Martial Flexibility(which I like) but Brawler's Cunning means the class took a hit from design balancing. I'll check it out, thanks. Given the header any posts would come with a new header & thread.
We are also in a post development period as Paizo has moved on to PF2.
Crane Style requires fighting defensively which means a BAB/2 class suffers more from this style. Due to spellcasting AC isn't a huge concern as the opponent is a wizard, a martial at range, or being in a martial foes threatened area(worst case).
The mental block I’m running into with this experiment is that your source of inspiration is a Prestige Class that focuses exclusively on spellcasting and saving throws improvement (to represent a focus at resisting damaging spells), but your execution involves multi-classing to get a limited set of martial abilities. Those martial abilities, however, require mobility… which will compete with your damaging spells for (the now reduced) available spell slots.
If your use of the Wizard is a must, thematically speaking, then fair enough. If it’s not a prerequisite, though, I wonder if the Magus isn’t a better Mage-Killer right out of the box.
EDIT: I really do mean that thematic bit. I mean, I recently just got done tooling around with a Vital Strike-centric Fighter, just for the fun of it. I have no room to question your desire to flesh out this concept!
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: ...
If your use of the Wizard is a must, thematically speaking, then fair enough. If it’s not a prerequisite, though, I wonder if the Magus isn’t a better Mage-Killer right out of the box. ...
Magus isn't a good riposte(opponent) to Wizard. There are a host of reasons why.
It's also not an experiment. I've tested this in Org Play (which generally only goes to 12th level and has a lot of rulez to contain things) and home games. It is more effective than it looks BUT it's not a full caster and it suffers for it. It's the best option I've tested in this style. I'd rather play this build than a Magus and I've done both. I tend to play spellcasters. As a long time GM I've run a lot of classes as NPCs (often they are NOT optimized or even well built).
Note: it's fair game to edit your posts within the first hour (I tend to be a heavy editor).
There are a host of arguments to be made as to why any two classes could or could not be foils for each other, in large part because of Paizo’s efforts to achieve some semblance of game balance (and their failures to ultimately do so). We’re not so much talking about the Magus as an opponent to a Wizard in a vacuum, however, as we are about that contest between levels 1-9… relative to what a Monk 2/Diviner 7 can achieve.
With that in mind, Evasion is terrific… but the distance it defaults to makes Redirection (just 2/day) and Unsettling Counter redundant. Likewise, the proximity needed for Redirection and Unsettling Counter to function makes Evasion redundant. By contrast, the Magus need make no such compromises. Even the vanilla version of that class gets Arcana, feats, and spells purpose-built to get him into melee combat (with a pounce), trip, disrupt spellcasting, and so on. Specialized builds, like the Eldritch Scion with his Arcane Bloodline, might as well have been called “Mage-Killer” themselves.
I would argue that the Magus’s efficacy at fighting other magic-users starts properly dropping when full spellcasters start hitting their height of power—when they gain 5th+ spell levels. Ironically, at that point the two levels of Monk abilities will drop into the background swiftly and steeply, and the Mage-Killer will rely more on purpose-driven spellcasting and feat selection… much like the original prestige class.
Re: the edit system, I’m familiar enough with it; I have no idea why I felt the need to add (and bolden!) that qualifier up there! :D
There is a spell warrior Skald archetype that focuses on counter spelling, it can only counterspell up to 6th level though, and counter spelling is wonky.
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: ... We’re not so much talking about the Magus as an opponent to a Wizard in a vacuum literally with Call the Void we are but with the Magus in a vacuum effect while the Mage-killer seems to just stand there doing nothing due to Illusion of Calm(on both spell lists) lol
the saves on the effects of the penalties associated with the CMs are trivial and in most cases you'd be hunting for a very low roll. The effects of the CMs are not trivial and can cause Charge to be ineffective and remove you from the threat range of opponents OR keep them in your range as an immediate action.
Magus sacrifice a lot to poke things and go crit fishing.
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: ... they gain 5th+ spell levels. Ironically, at that point the two levels of Monk abilities will drop into the background swiftly and steeply, and the Mage-Killer will rely more on purpose-driven spellcasting and feat selection… much like the original prestige class. Prestige classes also sacrifice cumulative class benefits such as arcane discoveries, familiar abilities, etc. I've avoided that debacle.
If you want to be a caster who specializes in killing casters, then you need to 1) go first in initiative as often as possible, and 2) counterspell/dispel them relentlessly, 3) have a reliable way of afflicting Blindness, Nauseated, and/or Paralyzed, and 4) reliably force Conc checks.
For this Caster-who-kills-casters, I'd recommend going Arcane Trickster PrC with Wiz3/Rogue1/ArcaneTricksterX with Abjuration (Counterspell) school, or a Wiz3/Rogue1/ArcaneTricksterX with Evocation (Admixture) Wizard, or a Kitsune SorcererX with Fey Bloodline focusing on Enchantment/Compulsions.
For your race, I'm going to recommend Elf here because +2 Dex/Int, +2 vs Enchantment Saves, Sleep Immunity, +2 Spell Pen is too good to pass up on a caster-killer.
W/e build you choose, you should plan on getting Disruptive Spell Metamagic, and get an Improved Familiar (get a Homunculus with the Prankster Familiar Archetype) at level 7, and then use your Homunculus Familiar to Blind your enemies with Improved and Greater Dirty Trick.
Give this Homunculus a bunch of SLA's from 500gp to 3000gp depending on the spell levels of the potions, but we want to make sure he has Fly, Haste, Displacement, Make Whole, Invisibility, Grease, Vanish, and whatever else you want, and yep you guessed it, the star of the show: Dispel Magic. This Homunculus is meant to be nothing more than a missile that you launch at an enemy caster, it's only job is to fly directly at the caster, get into melee range, and then Blind via Prankster Archetype, force Conc Checks via AoO's or Conc Checks via Casting Defensively, and cast Dispel Magic on anything he actually successfully casts. Give this Homunculus a Recharge Innate Magic wand for recharging 0- & 1st SLA's and you're in business.
Ryze Kuja wrote: If you want to be a caster who specializes in killing casters, then you need to ... interesting ideas, thanks.
I'd review the two builds I posted looking at initiative & associated abilities, saves, CMB & CMD, Concentration bonuses along with being a wizard down two levels.
My main issue with counterspelling is it's reactive, has terrible action economy, does not advance tactical goals. During combat Dispel Magic without being able to target identified spells is in the same boat and relies on CL vs CL.
Familiars are notoriously easy to kill. Can the Homunculus overcome a CMD of 28 and Dispel check of 18-20? Investing resources in such a line of attack invariably leads to an unrecoverable loss of resources and class penalties associated with that loss.
Azothath wrote: literally with Call the Void we are but with the Magus in a vacuum effect while the Mage-killer seems to just stand there doing nothing due to Illusion of Calm(on both spell lists) lol With respect, why stop with two spells cast prior to combat? Why not three or more? More to the point, the same spells would apply just as much to a Monk/Diviner. And, as mentioned above, Initiative is king where so many of these hypothetical battles are concerned.
Quote: the saves on the effects of the penalties associated with the CMs are trivial and in most cases you'd be hunting for a very low roll. The effects of the CMs are not trivial and can cause Charge to be ineffective and remove you from the threat range of opponents OR keep them in your range as an immediate action. See above. Of course, that assumes the Wizard in question defeats, e.g., Displacement, Invisibility, Mirror Image, or any number of other effects. But of course that assumes the hypothetical Magus is fighting your Monk/Diviner. He’s not. I’m simply arguing that he’s better than a Diviner with a couple of Monk levels for the specific purpose discussed here.
Quote: Prestige classes also sacrifice cumulative class benefits such as arcane discoveries, familiar abilities, etc. I've avoided that debacle. Apologies for not being clear. I’m not advocating a prestige class approach; I’m saying that, unless you take more Monk levels between 11-20, you’ll increasingly rely on a more focused spellcasting approach to defeat other magic-users… which is what the original Mage-Killer did.
Azothath wrote: Ryze Kuja wrote: If you want to be a caster who specializes in killing casters, then you need to ... interesting ideas, thanks.
I'd review the two builds I posted looking at initiative & associated abilities, saves, CMB & CMD, Concentration bonuses along with being a wizard down two levels.
My main issue with counterspelling is it's reactive, has terrible action economy, does not advance tactical goals. During combat Dispel Magic without being able to target identified spells is in the same boat and relies on CL vs CL.
Familiars are notoriously easy to kill. Investing resources in such a line of attack invariably leads to an unrecoverable loss of resources and class penalties associated with that loss. Homunculus can have HD added to them for 2,000gp each. You can make them very hard to kill, and this is what sets them apart from all other familiars.
Azothath wrote:
My main issue with counterspelling is it's reactive, has terrible action economy, does not advance tactical goals. During combat Dispel Magic without being able to target identified spells is in the same boat and relies on CL vs CL.
You only need to counterspell with Dispel Magic until your Homunculus lands Blind. Once the caster is blind, they can't cast anything that requires line of sight. They're relegated to Self-only or Touch Attacks (with a 50% miss chance for being blind), and a tiny smattering of other spells. All their dangerous stuff goes away, so you don't need to worry about counterspelling anymore once they're blinded (or if you land nauseated/paralyzed either, for that matter). Once you land any one of these 3 debuffs, they're basically loot piñatas just waiting to get smacked.
I will say this, though: our debate aside, I REALLY like your theme—much more so than the original Mage-Killer. It’s the kind of hybrid concept I would’ve loved to have seen come out with the Advanced Class Guide.
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: Azothath wrote: literally with Call the Void we are but with the Magus in a vacuum effect while the Mage-killer seems to just stand there doing nothing due to Illusion of Calm(on both spell lists) lol With respect, why stop with two spells cast prior to combat? Why not three or more? More to the point, the same spells would apply just as much to a Monk/Diviner. And, as mentioned above, Initiative is king where so many of these hypothetical battles are concerned. my point is ironic/humorous and notes that many spells are not on the Magus's spell list. Most classes would fail if they wait on the wizard to fully prep, DUH! lol... My advice is don't do that in play or run away and wait for the durations to run out then come back and kick sum butt. Ofcourse in boxed text of adventures it is an endemic practice.
Generally Diviners have a high initiative combined with acting in the surprise round.
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: See above. Of course, that assumes the Wizard in question defeats, e.g., Displacement, Invisibility, Mirror Image, or any number of other effects. But of course that assumes the hypothetical Magus is fighting your Monk/Diviner. He’s not. I’m simply arguing that he’s better than a Diviner with a couple of Monk levels for the specific purpose discussed here. note that True Strike negates the miss chance from concealment (like from Obscuring Mist).
note Arcane Sight & Detect Invisibility. We ARE talking about a Diviner as an attacker. It is a safe assumption that a prepared active diviner will detect most magical attempts at stealth, invisibility, blinking, or concealment as well as identify any spell cast within line of sight.
Phoebus Alexandros wrote: Azothath wrote: Prestige classes also sacrifice cumulative class benefits such as arcane discoveries, familiar abilities, etc. I've avoided that debacle. Apologies for not being clear. I’m not advocating a prestige class approach; I’m saying that, unless you take more Monk levels between 11-20, you’ll increasingly rely on a more focused spellcasting approach to defeat other magic-users… which is what the original Mage-Killer did. I wanted to make the point that I avoided the Prestige problem.
With PF1 it is a matter of diminishing returns, class build practicalities, and in game class effectiveness. As the Mage-killer build gains levels he of course acts more like a wizard. It is also why I mentioned Retraining. The monk abilities remain a trick in your pocket that remain effective against BAB/2 classes.
I've said this multiple times in various ways, it is a choice of trades and accepting that you will suffer a loss in casting. It's about trying to maximize, broaden, and tweak the practical gains to minimize that loss and do that throughout the level gains of the build.
Also like any wizard, highly magic resistant creatures that don't suffer many conditions or are combat tanks that get close ARE an issue. This build gives you a bit more of a chance or options in that situation.
Ryze Kuja wrote: Homunculus can have HD added to them for 2,000gp each. You can make them very hard to kill, and this is what sets them apart from all other familiars. this line of reasoning assumes unlimited resources(cash) OR sinking a character's precious equipment cash (which are generally buffs, protections, enhancements, and options) and a feat into its half hit point low BAB wannabe attack buddy. Familiars DO help action economy particularly getting buff/protection spells cast on their master. If you play past 12th level you would be aware of the fragility of familiars.
My play experience and system expertise indicate that Familiars are best at low levels and become liabilities in combat as level increases. I think they're great character stylistic enhancements and give people a lot of enjoyment.
Azothath wrote: Ryze Kuja wrote: Homunculus can have HD added to them for 2,000gp each. You can make them very hard to kill, and this is what sets them apart from all other familiars. this line of reasoning assumes unlimited resources(cash) OR sinking a character's precious equipment cash (which are generally buffs, protections, enhancements, and options) and a feat into its half hit point low BAB wannabe attack buddy. Familiars DO help action economy particularly getting buff/protection spells cast on their master. If you play past 12th level you would be aware of the fragility of familiars.
My play experience and system expertise indicate that Familiars are best at low levels and become liabilities in combat as level increases. I think they're great character stylistic enhancements and give people a lot of enjoyment. I'm very aware of the fragility of familiars, and I'm not suggesting you send your familiar into battle every time just to die. You're only sending it after the caster, and you would only send it after the caster if you know it would be safe to do so. If you're worried about your familiar dying, such as if the enemy wizard is surrounded by martial-types, you can just have your homunculus using wands or scrolls to cast Blindness from range.
You want to be Blinding/Nauseating/Paralyzing the caster as soon as humanly possible, but also while not sacrificing your own action economy to do it; unless you absolutely have to.
Ryze Kuja wrote: I'm very aware of the fragility of familiars, and I'm not suggesting you send your familiar into battle every time just to die. You're only sending it after the caster, and you would only send it after the caster if you know it would be safe to do so. If you're worried about your familiar dying, such as if the enemy wizard is surrounded by martial-types, you can just have your homunculus using wands or scrolls to cast Blindness from range.
You want to be Blinding/Nauseating/Paralyzing the caster as soon as humanly possible, but also while not sacrificing your own action economy to do it; unless you absolutely have to.
"only send it after the caster if you know it would be safe to do so"... hmmm.... that's almost impossible and certainly isn't going to happen during open hostilities.
I'd say an unengaged wizard with an action is probably the worst target for a familiar at range that is openly directed to attack him. Okay maybe a gunslinger or zen archer is worse. 8^0 pew pew!
If you somehow manage to have the target wizard fail a save vs a wand of Blindness (Fort 13 vs about +7 on the save) they'd probably retreat using spells as blindness does not impede spellcasting (it does on targeting others). It is a good temporary draw|tie which may give you more time.
so with 3 posters trying to poke holes I think there's only 1 line of attack with a low chance of success that came out of the exchange. I think it is clear that familiars would be the first to fall in this scenario as it's tactically advantageous and easy to do.
I think overall that's darn good.
I think this build is superior to other attempts at the goal and makes a good alternative for a slightly more martial wizard with increased standalone survival (better weapons, better CM & moves, always armed, better AC(+ Wis), better saves(+2 +2 +2) & evasion, HPs are nearly the same(+2), +4 skill ranks & Acro EscArt Percptn Ride Stealth as class skills(that's +19 total), top level spells are lost) likely to get a surprise round and first round on the target. Lastly this build does not rely on Race for tricks although the usual wizard choices stand out (aasimar, samsaran, human etc). It is highly recommended to take Trait:Magical Knack to keep spell durations up while there are fans of wayang spellhunter and magical lineage.
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