Beguiling Touch from the Manipulator sub-school of Enchantment says that it requires touching. Now, since it is a spell-like ability, it is activated mentally, so no incantations, hand waving, etc., so would there be any external indication, other than effects that detect magic/charm, that would give this away, or is it really a matter of shaking someone's hand to say high, and they need to make a Will save to avoid charm?
Follow on question: if they make the save, or after they recover from the effect, would they know they've been whammied?
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What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?
Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.
posted October 2015 | back to top
Spellcasting is evident, even when you are using SLA.
OK then, if this can be detected, what's the point of the ability? If someone can tell you are using magic on them when you use this ability, it becomes essentially pointless.
Unless this falls under an instance of the later stated special abilities, which, given the description of the ability, is almost what I have to assume.
Link to look at the ability yourselves.
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If you charm someone when he is alone it works perfectly.
If you enchant someone to have one less opponent, it works perfectly.
If you cast the SP ability in advance, before entering the room/area/whatever, and held the spell, it works (you can need to have someone opening the door).
It doesn't work if you want to enchant the merchant in front of you in the middle of the market or one of several guards so he lets you pass.
First, read the description of the ability. I provided the link to AoN in my previous post. It can't be cast before, it is used as you touch the target.
Second, if that is true, we come to the follow on question I already asked; does the person affected remember after the effect has worn off that the Manipulator used magic right before interacting with them?
The whole reason I ask is that if the use of this ability is blatantly obvious, it is not able to perform its primary function. Yet that it is completely discrete sounds a bit much. Yet, there is nothing given on whether a bystander or the target can roll Perception to notice (presumably against the save DC of the ability), or if a Sleight of Hand or Bluff check can be made to hide or distract from the use of the ability. I'm of the opinion that some sort of check would be required to notice the use of the ability, and that use of Bluff or Sleight of Hand could make the base check harder.
Just a classic reminder that there are some of us "so-called heretics" that think this FAQ entry is completely bogus and just don't run "spell manifestations". Imagine instead of some hex symbol coming up when the cleric tries to charm someone, instead it just looked like a jedi waving his hand at the guy selling him death sticks. If that's the kind of game you (and your GM) want, just pretend this stupid FAQ retcon doesn't exist.
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First, read the description of the ability. I provided the link to AoN in my previous post. It can't be cast before, it is used as you touch the target.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Touch spells can be held.
Second, if that is true, we come to the follow on question I already asked; does the person affected remember after the effect has worn off that the Manipulator used magic right before interacting with them?
It is the same problem that all other Charm spells have.
The whole reason I ask is that if the use of this ability is blatantly obvious, it is not able to perform its primary function. Yet that it is completely discrete sounds a bit much. Yet, there is nothing given on whether a bystander or the target can roll Perception to notice (presumably against the save DC of the ability), or if a Sleight of Hand or Bluff check can be made to hide or distract from the use of the ability. I'm of the opinion that some sort of check would be required to notice the use of the ability, and that use of Bluff or Sleight of Hand could make the base check harder.
All Charm spells have and had that problem. In the D&D Basic booklet of more than 40 years ago, there was a piece of narrative explaining how adventures go. In it, the PC was charmed and was friendly to the enemy mage, late remembering what happened after the spell did wear off.
Essentially, it is not meant to do what you want without adding other spells.
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Nope. Spells and sla's are super obvious. Everyone in the room knows when you do it.
It's upto the player to figure out cunning and intelligent ways to use charm-type powers effectively.
Enchantment is more evil than necromancy (imho), so i don't blame npcs who get violent on someone manipulating their mind and emotions.
Beguiling Touch from the Manipulator sub-school of Enchantment says that it requires touching. Now, since it is a spell-like ability, it is activated mentally, so no incantations, hand waving, etc., so would there be any external indication, other than effects that detect magic/charm, that would give this away, or is it really a matter of shaking someone's hand to say high, and they need to make a Will save to avoid charm?
Follow on question: if they make the save, or after they recover from the effect, would they know they've been whammied?
You can activate the Beguiling Touch without anyone in the room knowing what you just did because there are no V, S, or M components, nor a focus, and you activate it mentally. You can cast it on yourself and then 3 days later touch someone as well, provided you've touched nothing to set the spell off nor performed anything that would cause the duration to end (such as casting another spell or SLA), because you hold this Beguiling Touch charge indefinitely until you discharge it by touching something intentionally or unintentionally, or cause it to end by casting something else.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Holding the charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.
As far as the merchant in a crowded market scenario, you can activate Beguiling Touch mentally and then walk right up to a merchant and shake their hand and say "hey buddy, you got a really great collection of wares here, what kind of deals you got?" right in front of guards in a crowded market and no one would be the wiser.
However, when that "boy, he sure is a really nice fella"-effect wears off (or if he passes the Will Save right then and there), you're going to be a Wanted Man by the Merchant's Guild. People aren't stupid, especially merchants, and when that effect wears off and he looks at his ledger and sees that he just gave a Necklace of the Stupidly Expensive away for an 80% price reduction, you can bet the farm that you're going to have a group of well-paid bruisers and thugs track you down and string you up by the ankles. You aren't the first Enchantment Wizard to ever think this was a good idea, and you certainly won't be the last either. Merchants have been screwed by magically-enhanced transactions for thousands of years and on every plane of existence, and they have contingencies for this.
If your DM lets you get away with this nonsense, he's either taking it really easy on you or he's brand new and simply doesn't know that these kinds of shenanigans should have serious consequences.
Mechanically speaking, you're breaking the WBL guidelines of the game, and you shouldn't do this kind of stuff out of respect for the other players as well. Who wants to be grouped with a guy who has 2x or even 3x WBL running around being superman.
But, if you're in a room full of baddies and you want to charm one of them with a handshake, it is entirely legit, and you could activate Beguiling Touch right in front of them and no one in the room would know what you just did until the guy you charmed starts acting weirdly agreeable and friendly to you, especially if his friends expect him to be hostile or unfriendly to you. Furthermore, any guard, thug, or baddie has a DC: 11 Knowledge (Arcana) Recall Intrigues check to know not to shake hands with an Enchantment Wizard, or anyone who's wearing robes (especially if they're on guard duty). If you're a guard, thug, or baddie, I'm quite positive you've received about a thousand death-by-powerpoint briefings from your commanding officers and they all say DO NOT TOUCH ENCHANTMENT WIZARDS. So if you're going to do this, I'd recommend casting Disguise Self or Alter Self first, and appear like someone they'd be willing to shake hands with.
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Beguiling Touch from the Manipulator sub-school of Enchantment says that it requires touching. Now, since it is a spell-like ability, it is activated mentally, so no incantations, hand waving, etc., so would there be any external indication, other than effects that detect magic/charm, that would give this away, or is it really a matter of shaking someone's hand to say high, and they need to make a Will save to avoid charm?
Follow on question: if they make the save, or after they recover from the effect, would they know they've been whammied?
You can activate the Beguiling Touch without anyone in the room knowing what you just did because there are no V, S, or M components, nor a focus, and you activate it mentally. You can cast it on yourself and then 3 days later touch someone as well, provided you've touched nothing to set the spell off nor performed anything that would cause the duration to end (such as casting another spell or SLA), because you hold this Beguiling Touch charge indefinitely until you discharge it by touching something intentionally or unintentionally, or cause it to end by casting something else.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Holding the charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges....
FAQ disagrees (but not about the hold the charge part)
What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?
Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.
posted October 2015
even a still, silent, spell or sla with no components has an obvious display of "hey! theres magic happening right here"
OK, I’m fully aware of the ability to hold a charge for a touch spell. However, the thing just about everyone that has commented has apparently forgotten is that specific trumps general, and if you had fully. Read. The. Ability. you’d know that this particular ability is triggered when you touch the target. (It’s in the Manipulator sub-school at the bottom of the page) Also, if you’d read the follow on posts I’d made, it would become clear that the thread question should have been how obvious is the use of this ability(is it automatically detected, or should there be a roll?), and whether or not it would be possible to hide its use with Sleight of Hand, or distract from its use with Bluff.
Given that particular ability is activated when you touch the intended target, in order for it to do its job, I would have to imagine that it is at least somewhat subtle. My follow on questions are then about where the first check would be required, base.
a bunch of stuff about a Spellcraft FAQ
Everything you said is true, but that's for Spellcraft. We're not talking about identifying a spell using Spellcraft though.
When you identify Beguiling Touch you're not using Spellcraft, you're making a Recall Intrigues check. You're "identifying a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells". It's a DC 11 Knowledge (Arcana) check because the DC is 10 + the class level when the feature is granted.
Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.
Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local 10+ class level when the feature is granted. *
Identify a combat feat being used Local 10+ character’s level
Identify a metamagic feat being used Arcana 10+ character’s level
Identify teamwork feat being used Nobility 10+ character’s level*Add 10 to the DC if the class is a prestige class
The Knowledge skill required to identify a feat or class feature varies depending on the type of feat or class feature to be identified and is outlined in the Recall Intrigues (Knowledge) table above, along with the DCs of such skill checks.
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a bunch of stuff about a Spellcraft FAQEverything you said is true, but that's for Spellcraft. We're not talking about identifying a spell using Spellcraft though.
When you identify Beguiling Touch you're not using Spellcraft, you're making a Recall Intrigues check. You're "identifying a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells". It's a DC 11 Knowledge (Arcana) check because the DC is 10 + the class level when the feature is granted.
...Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
Source PPC:SpyHB
You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.
Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local 10+ class level when the feature is granted. *
Identify a
Again
Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation.
It's still a blatant display of magical power.
Everyone still sees when you do it.
They don't need to know what it is to so the caster is definitely and obviously using a magical ability.
Whether or not they know exactly what ability, that's irrelevant. They still know it was a magical effect happening.
...a bunch of stuff about a Spellcraft FAQEverything you said is true, but that's for Spellcraft. We're not talking about identifying a spell using Spellcraft though.
When you identify Beguiling Touch you're not using Spellcraft, you're making a Recall Intrigues check. You're "identifying a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells". It's a DC 11 Knowledge (Arcana) check because the DC is 10 + the class level when the feature is granted.
Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
Source PPC:SpyHB
You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.
Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local 10+ class level when the feature is
No, they would have no clue. Knowledge Arcana is a Trained skill. You can't make Knowledge Arcana checks with DC's of 10 or higher unless you're trained. No one in the room would even be allowed a roll to identify it. They'd be clueless.
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OK, I’m fully aware of the ability to hold a charge for a touch spell. However, the thing just about everyone that has commented has apparently forgotten is that specific trumps general, and if you had fully. Read. The. Ability. you’d know that this particular ability is triggered when you touch the target. (It’s in the Manipulator sub-school at the bottom of the page) Also, if you’d read the follow on posts I’d made, it would become clear that the thread question should have been how obvious is the use of this ability(is it automatically detected, or should there be a roll?), and whether or not it would be possible to hide its use with Sleight of Hand, or distract from its use with Bluff.
Given that particular ability is activated when you touch the intended target, in order for it to do its job, I would have to imagine that it is at least somewhat subtle. My follow on questions are then about where the first check would be required, base.
No, the ability isn't activated when you touch someone.
"You can charm a living creature by touching it." is a generic description of what the spell-like ability does and it explains that you need to touch someone to affect him with the spell."(Sp)" is the relevant rule part. It says that it is a spell-like ability. Spell-like abilities are cast, they aren't activated by simply touching someone
You would be right if it was SU, but as it is SP it follows the rules for spells.
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...a bunch of stuff about a Spellcraft FAQEverything you said is true, but that's for Spellcraft. We're not talking about identifying a spell using Spellcraft though.
When you identify Beguiling Touch you're not using Spellcraft, you're making a Recall Intrigues check. You're "identifying a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells". It's a DC 11 Knowledge (Arcana) check because the DC is 10 + the class level when the feature is granted.
Recall Intrigues (Knowledge)
Source PPC:SpyHB
You can identify feats and the class features of various classes with successful Knowledge checks when you observe the feats or class features being used.
Check: You can attempt a skill check to identify a feat or class feature when you observe it in use, similar to how Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell. The feat or class feature must have some observable effect in order for you to attempt the Knowledge check. For example, you can’t see the internal determination of Iron Will, so this ability can’t identify that feat. In general, if a feat or class feature creates a noticeable effect (such as the extra attack from using Cleave) or has a variable modifier a character must choose to use (such as Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise, or Enlarge Spell), it can be identified. If it creates a static bonus (such as Dodge or Lightning Reflexes), there’s no telltale sign to give it away.
Task Knowledge Skill DC
Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells Arcana 10+ class level when the feature is granted.*
Identify a class feature from a class with access to the druid or ranger spell list Nature 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from a class that grants divine spells Religion 10+ class level when the feature is granted.
Identify a class feature from any other class Local
They don't have to identify it. They still see it.
There are still obvious manifestations. Those are still perceived.
Just because I don't know exactly what I'm looking at doesn't mean I can't see it.
It'd be like walking into a bank and sliding the teller a note in a foreign language. They don't know what it says, and may alert security that something abnormal is happening.
Just because they don't know the language doesn't make the note invisible
They don't have to identify it. They still see it.
There are still obvious manifestations. Those are still perceived.
Just because I don't know exactly what I'm looking at doesn't mean I can't see it.
It'd be like walking into a bank and sliding the teller a note in a foreign language. They don't know what it says, and may alert security that something abnormal is happening.
Just because they don't know the language doesn't make the note invisible
You're talking as if 1hour/level duration spells and cantrips don't exist. Wizards have Permanence, Contingency, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Prestidigitation, Ioun Stones, Magical Items, and a whole litany of other spells and magic auras/effects active pretty much all day long. Dude has anywhere from 5 to 30 magical spells/auras active and you can't identify any one of them. What's one more SLA that you can't identify anyway on top of all this nonsense? You wouldn't even get a roll to identify anyway. You would be completely clueless. You have the same chance as an infant taking an advanced calculus test: impossible. Every answer would be boogers and slobber.
The only time that the scenario you're describing would ever occur would be if a Wizard had absolutely zero magical auras, spells, or anything at all, absolutely nothing magical active at all, and then activated his SLA and suddenly his entire body is surrounded by the faint aura of his Touch Spell that wasn't there before. And even still, big deal. Dude casted something magical, you still have no clue what it does.
Are you guys speaking of the same thing?
Casting a Spell or an SLA is visible.
Having an SLA or Spell active after it has been cast isn't noticeable unless it has perceptible effects.
I originally said that you could cast Beguiling Touch in a marketplace and nobody would know. He's saying there would be a visible spell outlining the caster. And personally, I don't care; I don't care if there's a neon sign following him around that says "Magic Spell Active" with a little arrow pointing at the wizard, wizards walk around with spells active all day and nobody sounds the alarm. Nobody would have the faintest clue that you're about to charm someone. There are no V, S, or M components and you activate it mentally-- it could be literally a n y t h i n g. You would have to have Knowledge Arcana to even attempt the check, and your average guard didn't go to a wizarding academy.
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I'm just saying the act of casting/using an sla is obvious and visible. You can't hide it without specific feats/abilities. After the act is done, there's no longer a thing to see.
Holding the charge is fine, I think? I wasn't really addressing that part, just the act of casting in the presence of others.
But people just casting willy nilly on the street should be treated like a Crack head brandishing a handgun. It's dangerous and nobody else knows what your doing, and it should probably incite a panic.
Yeah right, when was the last time you cast a spell on yourself in a city or town and everyone ran inside and barred the doors? I'm gonna guess never, not even once.
Name Violation as DM: You wake up and head downstairs to the tavern and start having breakfast.
PC: I order eggs, bacon, and toast, and then cast Mage Armor and False Life
NV's Townsfolk in the Tavern: AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH HE'S CASTING SPELLS AMG EVERYBODY RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN
^---- please, please, please tell me that this is what you'd like the pathfinder universe to be like
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Name Violation as DM: You wake up and head downstairs to the tavern and start having breakfast.
PC: I order eggs, bacon, and toast, and then cast Mage Armor and False Life
NV's Townsfolk in the Tavern: AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH HE'S CASTING SPELLS AMG EVERYBODY RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN
^---- please, please, please tell me that this is what you'd like the pathfinder universe to be like
Yeah. Same as if you come in swinging swords, or firing off rounds, or walk into a bar with a bear. The average person is gonna be scared. That's why a lot of towns don't like adventures, they bring trouble.
There are things you don't do in polite society. Casting spells in a tavern is like making bomb jokes at an airport.
Can I see your license and registration for that spell component pouch?
Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Name Violation as DM: You wake up and head downstairs to the tavern and start having breakfast.
PC: I order eggs, bacon, and toast, and then cast Mage Armor and False Life
NV's Townsfolk in the Tavern: AAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH HE'S CASTING SPELLS AMG EVERYBODY RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN
^---- please, please, please tell me that this is what you'd like the pathfinder universe to be like
Yeah. Same as if you come in swinging swords, or firing off rounds, or walk into a bar with a bear. The average person is gonna be scared. That's why a lot of towns don't like adventures, they bring trouble.
There are things you don't do in polite society. Casting spells in a tavern is like making bomb jokes at an airport.
Can I see your license and registration for that spell component pouch?
This is more like "raising your shield slightly" than "firing a bow wildly". Fireball is obviously as bad/worse than crossbowing down the bar patrons because it has an obvious effect like a giant 40 ft. diameter explosion.
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Yeah right, when was the last time you cast a spell on yourself in a city or town and everyone ran inside and barred the doors? I'm gonna guess never, not even once.
Depends on the GM, I suppose.
If I was the GM, probably some guard will ask what are you doing, if it was done in the middle of the marketplace, and most merchants would be reluctant to deal with you.Done in a back alley, out of sight of most people besides some street urchins and vagrants? No one would care (besides, possibly, the local mafia boss or equivalent).
It is a matter of circumstances.
There are plenty of ways to make it acceptable if you want to role-play a bit.
The richly dressed guy followed by a magician servant saying with a haughty voice: "There is dust on my robe. Jeeves, clear it!" and the servant casting something can seem normal and allow the casting of the charm without arousing suspicion.
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Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Sure, try going to a bar and drawing your gun to clear it while sitting at a table. Perfectly harmless, but they will call the police if someone doesn't gun you down first.
The goal of most magic in Pathfinder is:
- kill someone;
- incapacitate someone;
- increase your or your friends fighting prowess;
- decrease other creatures fighting prowess.
There are plenty of exceptions, but they are a small percentage of all spells.
Spells are mostly dangerous and violent, so casting spells without asking permission first and stating what you are doing will be regarded as someone doing dangerous and violent stuff.
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Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Sure, try going to a bar and drawing your gun to clear it while sitting at a table. Perfectly harmless, but they will call the police if someone doesn't gun you down first.
The goal of most magic in Pathfinder is:
- kill someone;
- incapacitate someone;
- increase your or your friends fighting prowess;
- decrease other creatures fighting prowess.
There are plenty of exceptions, but they are a small percentage of all spells.
Spells are mostly dangerous and violent, so casting spells without asking permission first and stating what you are doing will be regarded as someone doing dangerous and violent stuff.
I don't always agree with Diego, but when I do (insert punchline here)
this is a better explanation of what i wanted to say
No, the ability isn't activated when you touch someone.
OK, so go track down the base spell for this, which is, ultimately, Charm Person. Now, since you felt the need to share the rules for exactly how SLAs work, go look at your own post. Guess what? Charm spells have a range of Close (25+5/2CLs), rather than a range of touch. Therefore, it is not a touch spell for which you can hold the charge. Therefore, the ability is activated when you touch your target, in accordance with the ability. Hence my comments and questions.
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No, the ability isn't activated when you touch someone.OK, so go track down the base spell for this, which is, ultimately, Charm Person. Now, since you felt the need to share the rules for exactly how SLAs work, go look at your own post. Guess what? Charm spells have a range of Close (25+5/2CLs), rather than a range of touch. Therefore, it is not a touch spell for which you can hold the charge. Therefore, the ability is activated when you touch your target, in accordance with the ability. Hence my comments and questions.
Beguiling Touch (Sp): You can charm a living creature by touching it. Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are unaffected, as are creatures in combat and those with an attitude of hostile toward you. Creatures receive a Will saving throw to negate the effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your wizard level + your Intelligence modifier. Creatures that fail their save are affected by charm monster for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This is a mind-affecting effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
this "isnt ultimately charm person". this does its own thing. if the sla were charm person it would say "this works as charm person" a spell base will say "treat as (specific spell)" or "functions as (spell name here)"
its a touch attach, just like every other touch spell in the game. you are just unnecessarily hung up on wording and have created your own logical fallacy.
you are the only one saying that.
its not unique or different. its exactly the same as every other touch based spell/sla in the game.
it completely works if you cast it (outside, out of view), have someone else open the door, walk in, introduce yourself and shake hands.
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No, the ability isn't activated when you touch someone.OK, so go track down the base spell for this, which is, ultimately, Charm Person. Now, since you felt the need to share the rules for exactly how SLAs work, go look at your own post. Guess what? Charm spells have a range of Close (25+5/2CLs), rather than a range of touch. Therefore, it is not a touch spell for which you can hold the charge. Therefore, the ability is activated when you touch your target, in accordance with the ability. Hence my comments and questions.
What action is "touching a target"? It is an Attack action? Standard action? Move action? Free action while doing something different?
What AC applies?
As, following your interpretation, it is a novel way to do things, where are the rules on how it works?
Or we should default to the rules for touch attacks? If so, it will never work.
Creatures with more Hit Dice than your wizard level are unaffected, as are creatures in combat
You are making an attack, the target is engaged in combat, and the spell fails to work.
Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Sure, try going to a bar and drawing your gun to clear it while sitting at a table. Perfectly harmless, but they will call the police if someone doesn't gun you down first.
The goal of most magic in Pathfinder is:
- kill someone;
- incapacitate someone;
- increase your or your friends fighting prowess;
- decrease other creatures fighting prowess.
There are plenty of exceptions, but they are a small percentage of all spells.
Spells are mostly dangerous and violent, so casting spells without asking permission first and stating what you are doing will be regarded as someone doing dangerous and violent stuff.I don't always agree with Diego, but when I do (insert punchline here)
this is a better explanation of what i wanted to say
So do either of you have any source material from Paizo to back any of this up or are you just taking American modern liberalism and cramming it into Golarion?
The reason I'm disinclined to believe you is that if this were the case, then it would be incorporated into Paizo's video games, and it's not. You can cast spells anywhere and nobody freaks out, unless you're actually hucking fireballs, then yeah they freak out.
I think you're just taking your fear and lack of knowledge of guns and doing your best to inject it to my fantasy world.
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Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Sure, try going to a bar and drawing your gun to clear it while sitting at a table. Perfectly harmless, but they will call the police if someone doesn't gun you down first.
The goal of most magic in Pathfinder is:
- kill someone;
- incapacitate someone;
- increase your or your friends fighting prowess;
- decrease other creatures fighting prowess.
There are plenty of exceptions, but they are a small percentage of all spells.
Spells are mostly dangerous and violent, so casting spells without asking permission first and stating what you are doing will be regarded as someone doing dangerous and violent stuff.I don't always agree with Diego, but when I do (insert punchline here)
this is a better explanation of what i wanted to say
So do either of you have any source material from Paizo to back any of this up or are you just taking American modern liberalism and cramming it into Golarion?
The reason I'm disinclined to believe you is that if this were the case, then it would be incorporated into Paizo's video games, and it's not. You can cast spells anywhere and nobody freaks out,...
The video game AI (or lack there of) has no meaning here.
Npcs can't tell you what color the sky is or how many acres of land they own either.
So you are just making all this up then. This "spells are dangerous and everyone would run screaming" thing is simply the world according to Name Violation and Diego. You have no official source material from Paizo stating that this is how it works in Golarion. Got it.
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Great, make it a political discussion.
Paizo video games?
Do you mean Pathfinder on line, the game with a vague relationship with Pathfinder rules?
Kingmaker and Wrath of Owlcat games? Those, at least, are a bit more rule compliant.
None of the games is a rules source.
Urban Adventures
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 433
At first glance, a city is much like a dungeon, made up of walls, doors, rooms, and corridors. Adventures that take place in cities have two salient differences from their dungeon counterparts, however. Characters have greater access to resources, and they must contend with law enforcement.Access to Resources: Unlike in dungeons and the wilderness, characters can buy and sell gear quickly in a city. A large city or metropolis probably has high-level NPCs and experts in obscure fields of knowledge who can provide assistance and decipher clues. And when the PCs are battered and bruised, they can retreat to the comfort of a room at an inn.
The freedom to retreat and ready access to the marketplace means that the players have a greater degree of control over the pacing of an urban adventure.
Law Enforcement: The other key distinctions between adventuring in a city and delving into a dungeon is that a dungeon is, almost by definition, a lawless place where the only law is that of the jungle: kill or be killed. A city, on the other hand, is held together by a code of laws, many of which are explicitly designed to prevent the sort of killing and looting that adventurers engage in all the time. Even so, most cities’ laws recognize monsters as a threat to the stability the city relies on, and prohibitions about murder rarely apply to monsters such as aberrations or evil outsiders. Most evil humanoids, however, are typically protected by the same laws that protect all the citizens of the city. Having an evil alignment is not a crime (except in some severely theocratic cities, perhaps, with the magical power to back up the law); only evil deeds are against the law. Even when adventurers encounter an evildoer in the act of perpetrating some heinous evil upon the populace of the city, the law tends to frown on the sort of vigilante justice that leaves the evildoer dead or otherwise unable to testify at a trial.
Weapon and Spell Restrictions
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 433
Different cities have different laws about such issues as carrying weapons in public and restricting spellcasters.The city’s laws might not affect all characters equally. A monk isn’t hampered at all by a law about peace-bonding weapons, but a cleric is reduced to a fraction of his power if all holy symbols are confiscated at the city’s gates.
Urban Features
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 433
Walls, doors, poor lighting, and uneven footing: in many ways a city is much like a dungeon. Some special considerations for an urban setting are covered below.
The limitations on the use of spells are a matter of setting and location.
A high-rank Hellknight in Cheliax can do things that will get a peasant drawn and quartered.Almost everywhere a bard can cast spells while performing and no one will bat an eye.
The same bard casting a spell without explanations or permissions while speaking with a merchant will be probably reported to the authorities.
In your world, there is no limitation on spellcasting? Your game, your choices, but at least try to be coherent, people will defend themselves from spellcasters and constantly question what they are doing.
Even pretending to act like magic manifestations is a good thing, we get into guards profiling based on what a character/player chooses to use as their manifestation. Use flowers just fluttering as you call upon an unseen servant, nobody bats and eye; but let your servant spark into existence from some small flash of fire, and suddenly everyone loses their minds.
You cast a fireball, sure, people should be able to see where it came from. Maybe you could even make the argument of seeing a shield spell come into existence before it fades to invisibility, but to say you see some dude across a room charm someone else also across the room without any skill rolls *and* know that he's not just using prestidigitation to clean some wine off his shirt (or anything else equally harmless) is bogus.
Sure, try going to a bar and drawing your gun to clear it while sitting at a table. Perfectly harmless, but they will call the police if someone doesn't gun you down first.
The goal of most magic in Pathfinder is:
- kill someone;
- incapacitate someone;
- increase your or your friends fighting prowess;
- decrease other creatures fighting prowess.
There are plenty of exceptions, but they are a small percentage of all spells.
Spells are mostly dangerous and violent, so casting spells without asking permission first and stating what you are doing will be regarded as someone doing dangerous and violent stuff.
Again, by this standard, everyone who even looks like they wield magic should be treated as someone walking around with a brandished gun, because you will not be clear of the area and to a guard by the time said wizard decides to do his fantasy Omar Mateen impression. Which is cool, there's plenty of worlds where magic is treated like something that needs to be repressed and tightly controlled, but it's not the world Golarion largely wants to be. It also still doesn't work with blanket spell manifestations, where you have zero way of telling the difference between simple, non offensive/combat spells (of which actually around 25% of the spell list consists of) and ones with "obvious harmful effects like fireball" short of one of the less than 1% of the population having spellcraft as a trained skill.
Also, just because the spell list consists of certain percentages of spells speaks nothing about how proportionately they are used, in public or even nonpublic and combat environments. Every day the BBEG wizard sits in his lair, he may have prepared 20+ combat spells, but he doesn't use them until the day the PC's arrive, but he will still cast any incidental spells that help through his daily routine in those days. All the magic crafters, court/noble-house wizards, non-adventuring church acolytes, and so on cast spells all day without people flipping the f*@! out over not knowing what a spell in their vague proximity actually is.
Even further, the need for that level of paranoia is just a fail rp in of itself: People with intent to murder, especially when they would have such high of a "power level" differential to random commoner 1 and 2's would have no need to try and be sneaky about it. The wizard wanting to ice and entire in wouldn't need to casually walk to the table, sit down, say out loud and lie "I'm just casting my daily mage armor" before they then cast cone of cold over the entire tavern floor. They'd kick down the door, maybe make their intentions known with a classic "Chill out!", and then still ice everyone in surprise round. Even further, that kind of Chaotic Stupid wizard/cleric/whatever that just commits random acts of mass violence without even a reason (like a BBEG who has a bad way of wanting to make the world a better place) would have been rooted out at the college/church/whatever before they were given such power to wield or even at any number of points along the way when such serious psychological problems could make themselves known (and even just be fixed with powerful magic in most cases).
An example of this even exists in the lore for Korvosa's Academae. Even in a college filled with magic users, people avoid the Hall of Charms (enchantment school) because you can't trust the enchanters to not charm you and likewise there are no spell manifestations that would stop them from doing it openly in crowds of fellow students or even graduates/professors, let alone against other deans where their charms are able to place them at the position of headmaster, and the implication is not that they actually are stronger.
The Hall of Charms frequently produces unreasonably powerful enchanters who sometimes even rival conjurers for power within the college. Several of the Acadamae’s past headmasters came from the Hall of Charms, a fact that continues to baffle and annoy the college’s conjurers.
Urban Adventures
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 433
At first glance, a city is much like a dungeon, made up of walls, doors, rooms, and corridors. Adventures that take place in cities have two salient differences from their dungeon counterparts, however. Characters have greater access to resources, and they must contend with law enforcement.Access to Resources: Unlike in dungeons and the wilderness, characters can buy and sell gear quickly in a city. A large city or metropolis probably has high-level NPCs and experts in obscure fields of knowledge who can provide assistance and decipher clues. And when the PCs are battered and bruised, they can retreat to the comfort of a room at an inn.
The freedom to retreat and ready access to the marketplace means that the players have a greater degree of control over the pacing of an urban adventure.
Law Enforcement: The other key distinctions between adventuring in a city and delving into a dungeon is that a dungeon is, almost by definition, a lawless place where the only law is that of the jungle: kill or be killed. A city, on the other hand, is held together by a code of laws, many of which are explicitly designed to prevent the sort of killing and looting that adventurers engage in all the time. Even so, most cities’ laws recognize monsters as a threat to the stability the city relies on, and prohibitions about murder rarely apply to monsters such as aberrations or evil outsiders. Most evil humanoids, however, are typically protected by the same laws that protect all the citizens of the city. Having an evil alignment is not a crime (except in some severely theocratic cities, perhaps, with the magical power to back up the law); only evil deeds are
...
Weapon and Spell Restrictions
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 433
Different cities have different laws about such issues as carrying weapons in public and restricting spellcasters.The city’s laws might not affect all characters equally. A monk isn’t hampered at all by a law about peace-bonding weapons, but a cleric is reduced to a fraction of his power if all holy symbols are confiscated at the city’s gates.
So you are just making it up. There is no rule from Paizo that says spellcasting is disallowed in cities and people freak out when you cast spells in markets. Each city behaves entirely different from one another about its laws and customs. Got it, thanks.