I'm coming back to this character. A half-elf investigator that uses a reach weapon. I really wanted to use an elven branch spear, but was suggested that I use a longspear instead. The two weapons have the same basic stats, but there are two differences with them. (Beyond Simple/Exotic.) The longspear can have the Inspired quality on it. The elven branch spear can be used on a dex build and have Agile.
Now, as a reach build, I'll probably go dex and take Combat Reflexes. However I don't want to go the Improved/Greater Trip route. Are there other ways to shut an opponent down with AoOs for a reach build?
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I don't think a reach build needs amazing dexterity. A dexterity of 12 will give you 2 AoOs per round and that is probably enough for almost any real fight, unless you have some additional way of generating AoOs, like a trip build. The big benefit in Combat Reflexes is that you can make AoOs even when flat footed, which is frankly reduced in usefulness by having a high dexterity and just going first anyway. Of course, you still might want to go dexterity focused for skills, like disable device.
The big reason to go with a longspear is because it's a simple weapon, so can take the inspired magic weapon quality.
This special ability can be placed only on simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, shortbows, short swords, and sword canesUE. In the hands of an investigator, an inspired weapon reduces the cost of using inspiration on attack rolls made with the weapon. The weapon’s wielder needs to expend only one use of inspiration to augment his attack rolls with this weapon, as with the combat inspiration investigator talent. If the wielder already has the combat inspiration talent, the wielder must still expend one use of inspiration, but in addition to adding the result of the inspiration roll to the attack roll, the investigator adds twice the result of the inspiration roll to the weapon’s damage roll.
That second optional effect is an even bigger deal if you are going half elf for the bonus to inspiration, because now you can double it for damage.
Agile isn't that great for two handed weapons, because it doesn't give you the extra .5 modifier you get from strength. In the end, the strength build gives you more damage, while also coming online immediately. At level 1, the strength build can have combat reflexes and do everything fine. The finesse halfelf can't even have combat reflexes until level 3.
If you really need more AoOs with the strength build, High Guardian Fighter gives Combat Reflexes at Level 2 and keys off strength rather than dexterity.
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To clarify, the need for additional AoOs will vary from GM to GM. But in my experience with multiple GMs, you just aren't likely to get more than 2 AoOs in a round unless you have some additional way of forcing them. Intelligent enemies will find ways around movement AoO, like 5 foot steps, acrobatics or using cover.
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I don't think a reach build needs amazing dexterity. A dexterity of 12 will give you 2 AoOs per round and that is probably enough for almost any real fight
100% agree. I have a 16th level Bloodrager who uses reach and combat reflexes to protect his party. I'm the only front-line character so my whole job is protecting the backline and making the most of my ability to deny space. I've had something like 8 rounds in the emtire 16 levels where I even had the option for more than 2 AoOs. 2 AoOs per round is enough to be worth it.
The big reason to go with a longspear is because it's a simple weapon, so can take the inspired magic weapon quality ...
<This> effect is an even bigger deal if you are going half elf for the bonus to inspiration, because now you can double it for damage.
The Half Elf bonus allows you to get truly ludicrous numbers on your Inspiration.
At level 4 your FCB brings it to 1d6+1
At level 7 with Amazing Inspiration it's 1d8+1
At level 8 your FCB brings it to 1d8+2 , your average roll is now higher than the base Investigator's maximum roll.
At level 9 you can take Combat Inspiration which means you can use the second part of the Inspire Weapon. Now you're rolling 1d8+2 to hit and getting double that to damage.
At level 12 your FCB brings it to 1d8+3 , and double that for damage .
At level 13 with Tenacious Inspiration you roll 2 dice and use the higher. With d8s the average roll is ~5.8, and with your FCB that becomes ~8.8, and double that to damage . Your average Inspiration roll is now higher than the maximum roll of an Investigator who took Amazing Inspirstion.
At level 16 your FCB brings it to [2]d8+4, and double that for damage .
At level 20 you now roll 2 dice on inspiration and add them together , and your FCB brings it to 2d8+5. This gives you an average roll of ~15.8, and double that for damage .
Now you might have a reason to go DEX-based, but as a Half-Elf I'd have a weapon that can be used with Inspiration, otherwise you're missing out on a lot there.
Those are all good points. Guess I'm going with the longspear and a Str build then.
I'd like to be able to keep people from moving away from me if possible. The Step Up line requires being adjacent, so that doesn't work with a reach weapon.
Those are all good points. Guess I'm going with the longspear and a Str build then.
I'd like to be able to keep people from moving away from me if possible. The Step Up line requires being adjacent, so that doesn't work with a reach weapon.
Regarding step Up: You can get items like the Dwarven Boulder Helmet or Armour Spikes that allow gou to threaten adjacent enemies. You could even just take Improved Unarmed Strike. You can't use gauntlets because those hands are on your spear, but anything that uses other limbs is fine. You're never going to deal a huge amount of damage with an unenchanted Boulder Helmet, but it can force some Concentration rolls.
Regarding the Longspear: First, I'm a huge fan of reach tactics. Reach weapons basically just give you free attacks, which is amazing. However I don't see them as being As useful for Investigators.
Investigators get a hefty attack and damage boost, but it only applies to 1 enemy at a time. You can do an amazing job at getting AoOs against your chosen target, but the enemy next to your target can likely walk right past you in relative safety since they're not your studied target. This also encourages you to keep your Studied Combat going between turns so that you can get those bonuses on AoOs, which means you won't make use of your Studied Strike . This is basically the same reasoning as the Swashtigator.
I think Investigators actually make excellent TWF builds. Normally I think TWF has a few problems: It costs more feats, it takes more stats , it comes with an accuracy penalty, it requires static damage to actually be better than a 2-handed build, and you lose a huge chunk of damage any round you don't full-attack. That's a lot of problems to overcome, and the more problems your class can fix the better that class is at making TWF characters .
Investigators only really solve 2 of those problems but they do it so well I think it's worth it. You go weapon finesse so that you'll pass the TWF requirements, and then you don't even need high STR or an agile weapon to deal damage because your Studied Combat is good enough. A 9th level Half-Elf Investigator is getting +4 to hit and damage, then on their final attack if they spend Inspiration they get another ~+6.5 to hit, ~+13 damage, and +3d6 damage from Studied Strike. That final attack ends up more accurate than your first attack, meaning you don't have to worry about whether that final attack is a waste . You can also potentially land 3 debuffs in a round with Investivator Talents, so adding that onto a decent damage dealer is pretty fun.
Of course you don't have to go TWF, I just think it's good to see how your class features interact with your combat style. I haven't played a reach Investigator, so maybe they're better than I think . Just a thought about how you're accomplishing your PC desing goals
If you want to threaten adjacent squares and don’t want to burn a feat for IUS you could take the adopted trait and choose the half-orc trait that gives you a bite attack. It’s kinda cheesy but legal.
I was planning on having the rogue of the group be a twf user, actually. Free weapon finesse and dex to damage is pretty helpful after all. Although I'm unsure if it works with twf. Most if the dex to damage feats don't.
Anyway, you guys really think I need a bite or gore attack? All I have to do is take a 5 foot step to be able to attack. And then get an AoO when they step foward again. The thing I'm worried about is them stepping away from me.
I was planning on having the rogue of the group be a twf user, actually. Free weapon finesse and dex to damage is pretty helpful after all. Although I'm unsure if it works with twf. Most if the dex to damage feats don't.
Yes Unchained Rogue DEX-to-damage is the best DEX-to-damage. It works with everything.
Having said that, Rogues have trouble actually making use of TWF since:
A) They have no bonus to hit, and they're a 3/4 BAB class.
B) Their bonus to damage relies on positioning. This Can work well if you have a teammate who's willing to flank for you, but if not you'll often spend your move action getting into position, which basically ruoes out TWF.
Anyway, you guys really think I need a bite or gore attack? All I have to do is take a 5 foot step to be able to attack. And then get an AoO when they step foward again. The thing I'm worried about is them stepping away from me.
No, you don't need a Natural weapon. ARMOUR SPIKES cost 50gp. They do weigh 10lbs, but there are other options.
No a bite or gore attack isn’t necessary however if you have natural attacks you can make them in addition to your armor spike attack as part of a full action. Helm of the mammoth lord is a cheap way to get a gore attack. A pretty easy way to get a permanent flanking partner is the Wasp Familiar feat with the mauler archetype. At 7th level you can take the feat again to upgrade your wasp from having the stats of a greensting scorpion to the stats of an Imp (including DR and fast healing). You would need a good CON and the Maulers Endurance feat but might be worth the feat investment if you don’t want to worry about your ally’s positioning. The fact that it flies also makes it easier to get into flanking positions.
I'm not really looking for more attacks for my investigator. I'm mostly going to be at reach, after all.