Hello to all. It's been a while since I've been here but I'm sure I can find some answers.
Sorry for my english I ll try my best to make me understand.
I play (for once) an Oracle of the mystery of the waves.
If I want to use the revelation Water Form to transform myself into a water elemental
I apply the rules of metamorphosis
And so my equipment merges with the form.
Does this mean that no equipment can be worn and everything is merged even AFTER the spell is cast? so if I pick something up it merges with the body???...
The classical armor and shield merges and doesn't give any bonus armor but what if I summon the Ice armor after the mutation? Nobody will ask the question about the fit to size of the revelation armor, we all think it's quite like a wild armor special ability. If you summon the ice armor after it changes in the new form and fit well. What about the merging or not merging equipement
SO ...
(I m not talking about mage armor, I know you can ).
I'm trying to understand the nature and the limits of the spell. I don't know if the rule wants to avoid this kind of accumulation or if the rule is made to simplify the change of size of strength belt, magic crowns... and to avoid ending up with an armor physically unsuited to the new body... but I'm calling to your knoledge before discussing it also with the DM
I'm really puzzled about this because without the ice armor the revelation has no real interest, the elemental is still quite weak in CA and his HP will not compensate for the number of hits he can take. and without the revelation of watery form the ice armor is not very interesting before lvl 11 / 13.
1. The Ice Armor revelation is not described as a Polymorph effect, so by a strict reading of the rules it should be able to be used with the Water Form revelation (which is based on a spell of the Polymorph sub-school).
On the other hand, the form of a small Water Elemental, which you assume, is "composed entirely from ... water." On that basis, I wouldn't be surprised if a GM argued that your Oracle could benefit from Ice Armor in humanoid form, but not in elemental form.
2. The rules under the Elemental subtype entry indicate that only specific elemental creatures wield weapons and wear armor. Nothing in the Small Water Elemental entry directly states it can't pick up an item, however. So again, this comes down to what you and your GM agree on regarding what a body made of water can do.
3. See number 2. It comes down to what is "suitable for the new form."
4. Whether your oracle can pick something up in elemental form is subject to your GM, as per number 2. In either case, an item your oracle tried to pick up after the spell was cast wouldn't be absorbed. The Polymorph rules only state that your gear melds into your body when you cast your spell.
Also remember that "items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). So a Ring of Protection, for example, would continue to protect you.
Thanks for your answer and the ring of protection tip.
If someone have other answers I'll be happy to discuss with
I Cannot stop thinking about all these and a sentence in the polymorph rules says :
"You cannot cast any spells that require material components..." it s certainly because you have no access to those. You have no acces because they merged on your form. It s not writing that you could use a picked up composant after your transfomation. It's even write that you can't cast except if you have the eschew materials feat. It probably means that object merged every time you pick it up
Or you can pick something but you couldn't use it??? It's convoluted
So I guess in a strict reading rule that you couldn't use component probably because objects merged instantanly with the form?
The Ice armor https://www.aonprd.com/MysteryDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Waves may still be different because it's an Supernatural ability.
like the Ice armor spell cleric 1st level https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ice%20Armor, is it possible to cast on an elemental.
Don't know. hope so... If it s not I will change the build
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Elementals are weird. Despite having a body of wind, water or fire, they are still as solid as any human. They don’t have to have immunity to weapons, and the smaller ones don’t even have DR. Their body shape can be animal or human, so that is the main limiter to using equipment.
But assuming you can choose to be humanoid in shape, you should be able to put equipment on after transforming and expect it to work.
Items only merge when you change form and if you are actually holding or wearing them. After you change to your new form items no longer merge to your new form. Nothing in the rules prevent you from setting an item down before you change form, and then picking them up in your new form. This will probably require some sort of action. In the case of normal armor, you would need to remove the armor and put it back on after you change. This will take a fair amount of time so is not something you are going to be able to do in combat. As long as the new form is able to use the item you can use the item once it is ready. If the item cannot be used by the new form, you cannot use it. For example, if your character is medium sized and you change into a small creature some items may not be able to be use or may incur a penalty to use. For example, if your character is medium and your new form is small you will not be able to use your characters normal armor or his two-handed weapon. You could use his one-handed weapon in two hands.
The Ice Armor revelation should not be a problem as long as you activate it after changing. The only issue you may have is needing to reactivate it when you change forms. Ice Armor can be used for a total of 1 hour per oracle level but has to be used in 1-hour increments. So, if you change into the water element and only remain in that form for less than an hour before changing back you will need to reactivate the armor for your normal form, but the time spent in the elemental form counts as a full hour even though you used it less than an hour.
Conversely, Water Form is a 1/day ability that lasts 1 hour per oracle level. Thus, you’ll only have to worry about taking off your armor and setting down your components and weapons once per day. For the second half of your Oracle’s career (roughly speaking, and assuming you play all the way to 20th level), Water Form will serve you for most (if not all) of that day.
Thx Mysterious ,
Your answer is clear even it s hard to imagine an leather armor on a fire elemental. What about the component rules? it doesn't work even if you pick up a component bag.
Now I've got a good overview about the polymorph rules. I ll wait my dm advice.
@phébus alexandros yes the time is really interresting and this build makes a very good tank. I cetainly will take Abundant revelation because we re in a RPG and I can't imagine to stay 12h in a same form, sometimes you have to became "normal".
As long as you put down the component or component pouch you can pick it up after you change and still use it. Oracles are divine casters which usually use divine focus instead of material components. But Oracles actually do not need divine focuses when casting spells. If the spell has F/DF or M/DF it means an arcane caster has to have the focus or material component, but a divine caster uses a divine focus. As I stated earlier an oracle does not need a divine focus so can cast those spells without needing a focus, material component or divine focus.
It does not matter what the item is. Unless you are holding or wearing it when you transform it does not merge. You can also pick up any item and use it as long as the form can use the item.
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Thx Mysterious ,
Your answer is clear even it s hard to imagine an leather armor on a fire elemental. What about the component rules? it doesn't work even if you pick up a component bag.Now I've got a good overview about the polymorph rules. I ll wait my dm advice.
@phébus alexandros yes the time is really interresting and this build makes a very good tank. I cetainly will take Abundant revelation because we re in a RPG and I can't imagine to stay 12h in a same form, sometimes you have to became "normal".
It can be a good idea to take Eskew material. As an Oracle, you don't need a holy symbol.
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equipment only merges if it cannot be used/worn by the new form. So for most creatures that now means consulting Magic Item Body Slots and whether the creature conforms to armor/shield body types and hands for wielding manufactured weapons. Most of that was done for familiars and animal companions and so it falls to GM judgement for monsters.
Putting items down and picking them up was a method to force the issue as sometimes there was disagreement about what the process was and the extra time helped draw that distinction.
Polymorph:
...
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
All the gear meld if you become an elemental.
When you become an elemental there is no rule saying that you take a specific form. The description of the water elementals says:
As with other elementals, all water elementals have their own unique shapes and appearances. Most appear as wave-like creatures with vaguely humanoid faces and smaller wave “arms” to either side. Another common form is that of any aquatic creature, such as a shark or octopus, but made entirely out of water.
The text gives a few examples, but nothing stops you from taking a humanoid form. Whatever form you take, your statistics don't change.
So nothing stops you from donning armor, using weapons, and wearing a backpack or a spell pouch, besides the possible damage to the item.Considering the Drench ability, I, as a GM, would rule that all your worn equipment is constantly drenched. That can ruin scrolls that aren't in a waterproof container (but not immediately), several kinds of components in the spell pouch, food in the backpack, and so on.
The texting the Polymorph says that you are unable to use the components even if you are technically able to wear the spell pouch (see bolded text). While probably it is a balance limitation, the lore explanation can be that the nature of your body in some way contaminates the compèonents when you handle them.
Personally, if the caster takes the time to wear the spell pouch and the component isn't something that will be damaged by being drenched, I would allow its use.
I like all the ideas including the drenched house rule and contaminate component house rule too. For sure some kind of polymorphism seem to be as a humanoid form. May be the rule makes a generality without the specifity of some humanoid form and specifics cases like an humanoid elemental. Anyway usual objects seems to be usable. I know my DM looked this post. I m sure he has his own idea on the rule now we've discussed. He probably wants to keep suspens until my next revelations.