I'm having difficulty understanding the wealth by level chart and what is meant by permanent items. I understand what it's saying, I guess, but from an actual balance point it seems really unbalanced? By that chart a character would possibly end up with a bunch of low level items (and we all know that most items don't scale well), maybe miss out on having an appropriately leveled weapon or armour set, and some change (not enough to buy say, a new weapon).
In the campaign my character is in (an AP, were about to finish book 4) I'm struggling to save up for bracers of armour 2 and we're just about 15th level. I don't spend any money on things like consumables, instead we sell just about everything we come across. My dm (rightly) says that judging by the wealth by level table, you're not actually supposed to have weapon or armour of your level. At least it isn't a guaranteed thing.
Is this a normal thing? Do others have a similar experience?
My understanding is that you're supposed to be able to afford the appropriate weapon/armor part way through the given level. What I've observed is that it's usually a better idea for the party caster(s) to take the money that would go to staves or something and instead use it to ensure martial weapon progression is on curve (or ahead if you can manage it) and that everyone has the armour they need on curve.
When pf2 first started I'd have said that casters should keep a weapon, but there are enough good 3rd actions available through archetypes that they can safely divest themselves of magic weapons entirely and put that gold to better use for the party.
If you create a new second level character and give him the appropriate starting money (30 GP) He won't have enough to both buy the basic stuff he needs *and* put a potency rune on his weapon, in spite of the fact that a +1 potency rune is a second level item. So yeah, "part way through the given level" makes some sense.
OTOH, I wonder if Paizo's original thinking on this included some nod to "downtime" (I wish they had picked a better name for that) where pcs can earn some extra money while they're not adventuring. Or can craft their own stuff. I do get a sense, which may be wrong, that most PF players consider "downtime" a waste of time. It's not, or at least it shouldn't be.
I haven't done this, but I wonder what one would find by working out the values of the permanent and consumable items on the wealth by level chart and adding that to the gold amount, and then comparing it to the last column total gold. It should come out reasonably close, but if it's significantly less, that seems like a problem. And I can't imagine it would be significantly more.
It does seem to me that the prices of magical items are pretty severely inflated, unless the idea is that supply is very much less than demand.
On the other hand, the acceleration of earnings makes it difficult to fall too far behind. Permanent items a level or two lower than you become quite inexpensive (if earning as normal). Not that I haven't had issues with some APs (albeit in PF1) where the module gives out appropriate wealth, but in the form of items you kind of need to keep/use in the adventure, yet which aren't the standard items for PC progression (or which in one case was an excellent above-level weapon nobody in the party could use well).
I counted I think 22 magical weapons in the treasure lists of Abomination Vaults. Most of them +1 or +1 striking, with a few +2 or +2 striking (not surprising since the AP only goes up to level 10).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Finding above level items is incredibly fun. That's a staple in my campaigns.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm having difficulty understanding the wealth by level chart and what is meant by permanent items. I understand what it's saying, I guess, but from an actual balance point it seems really unbalanced? By that chart a character would possibly end up with a bunch of low level items (and we all know that most items don't scale well), maybe miss out on having an appropriately leveled weapon or armour set, and some change (not enough to buy say, a new weapon).
In the campaign my character is in (an AP, were about to finish book 4) I'm struggling to save up for bracers of armour 2 and we're just about 15th level. I don't spend any money on things like consumables, instead we sell just about everything we come across. My dm (rightly) says that judging by the wealth by level table, you're not actually supposed to have weapon or armour of your level. At least it isn't a guaranteed thing.
Is this a normal thing? Do others have a similar experience?
So let's start with: there are TWO wealth by level tables: 10-9 and 10-10. Table 10-9 is the normal one, 10-10 is for starting new characters mid-campaign. The CRB also tells you that starting from 10-10 will put you a bit behind, on purpose, because you get to cherry-pick your items.
So we should be looking at 10-9. It tells you what permanent items the party as a whole should find during a level. So for example, during level 3, the party should find 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 items. Supposing everyone gets something, that means half the PCs are getting an on-level item, and the other half are getting an ABOVE-level item. The idea in the background here is that adventuring is a way of getting loot that's better than what you could craft or buy in the store, since that's maxed at your level while loot goes higher than that.
Put differently: your GM is wrong about you not being supposed to have weapons or armor of your level. You should be getting some items of your level or HIGHER.
Now, they're not guaranteed to be the exact items you need, your GM is correct that the CRB doesn't say that the permanent items you find will be strictly weapons and armor. I mean, a wizard might like a staff now and then! However, the GMG does give some more advice on this topic: GMG p. 38: Treasure
The GMG advises that 50% to 100% of permanent items should be "core" items, so fundamental runes and other class-centric stuff that the party is highly likely to use, not sell immediately. If you have lots of downtime and access to shops, closer to 50%; if you're going to be forever stuck in the wilderness and no trading at all, or if the adventure is at such high speed that detours for shopping are impossible, closer to 100%.
TL;DR - You should be able to have on-level core items most of the time, either because you find them directly or because you have the time and money to buy or craft them. Adventure loot should sometimes result in you having stuff above your level, temporarily making you a tiny bit OP.
I'm having difficulty understanding the wealth by level chart and what is meant by permanent items. I understand what it's saying, I guess, but from an actual balance point it seems really unbalanced? By that chart a character would possibly end up with a bunch of low level items (and we all know that most items don't scale well), maybe miss out on having an appropriately leveled weapon or armour set, and some change (not enough to buy say, a new weapon).
In the campaign my character is in (an AP, were about to finish book 4) I'm struggling to save up for bracers of armour 2 and we're just about 15th level. I don't spend any money on things like consumables, instead we sell just about everything we come across. My dm (rightly) says that judging by the wealth by level table, you're not actually supposed to have weapon or armour of your level. At least it isn't a guaranteed thing.
Is this a normal thing? Do others have a similar experience?
So let's start with: there are TWO wealth by level tables: 10-9 and 10-10. Table 10-9 is the normal one, 10-10 is for starting new characters mid-campaign. The CRB also tells you that starting from 10-10 will put you a bit behind, on purpose, because you get to cherry-pick your items.
So we should be looking at 10-9. It tells you what permanent items the party as a whole should find during a level. So for example, during level 3, the party should find 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 items. Supposing everyone gets something, that means half the PCs are getting an on-level item, and the other half are getting an ABOVE-level item. The idea in the background here is that adventuring is a way of getting loot that's better than what you could craft or buy in the store, since that's maxed at your level while loot goes higher than that.
Put differently: your GM is wrong about you not being supposed to have weapons or armor of your level. You should be getting some items of your level or HIGHER.
Now, they're not guaranteed to be the...
Thank you for this, very helpful. Didn't think to look at that other table.