Well; actually i'm GMing the Carrion Crown AP. I've got a player with a Human Barbarian that recently has reached lvl 12 and he has chosen this rage power:
Come and Get Me (Ex): While raging, as a free action the barbarian may leave herself open to attack while preparing devastating counterattacks. Enemies gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the barbarian until the beginning of her next turn, but every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack. A barbarian must be at least 12th level to select this rage power.
He also have 2 feats related with my next questions:
Combat Reflexes (Combat)
You can make additional attacks of opportunity.
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special: The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.
Pushing Assault (Combat)
A strike made with a two-handed weapon can push a similar sized opponent backward.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack modified by the Power Attack feat, you can choose to push the target 5 feet directly away from you instead of dealing the extra damage from Power Attack. If you score a critical hit, you can instead push the target 10 feet directly away from you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities, and the target must end this move in a safe space it can stand in. You choose which effect to apply after the attack roll has been made, but before the damage is rolled.
Well... He wants to do some things with those feats and the rage power:
1 - One of the things is use the Rage power; if an enemy starts near him, he attacks (and probably hits) the enemy and then he will push back the enemy... In this case, the enemy could use the 5' step and then... A) he continues his attack, because it was declared before? B) he must choose to do (if he can) a second attack, because the first one was out of reach and he lost it?...
- And, if the enemy tries to do another second attack, the barbarian will use the feat again, pushing the enemy away 5' and the enemy will loose the rest of the attacks, ever...?
- And, if the enemy has done the 5' step to reach the barbarian (because the barbarian in the last turn attacked him and then used the 5' step to walk away from the enemy), and then the barbarian uses rage power+feat.. the enemy loses all its turn?
Because you can choose if you do an action attack or a full action attack, but you can't choose between a 5' step and a movement; so, if you have declared (and used) a 5' step, you cannot use a movement action (i mean, to move).
What is more, if 6 enemies charge against him and he has got enough aoo's, they will loose their turn, after receive, each, an attack with a +4 to attack and damage...
I don't find it very fair. Then, from now on, the melee enemies are completely castrated from this point...?
And the second thing he says he wants to do:
2 - He wants to get ready with the rage power and the feat to sunder enemies' weapons when the enemies try to attack him:
- As far as he doesn't have the Improved sunder feat, he provokes an aoo when he tries to sunder them. But, if the enemies use their aoo to attack him, or to sunder him, they are doing another attack, so the Come and get me rage power gives the barbarian another aoo. And he wants to use this attack TO SUNDER... Then te result is that he sunders, Yes or Yes, and the enemies will end without their weapons. And there is no option.
Is really that way? I mean... As far as i see the results, i see that he is breaking part of the game. Am i wrong? Is there anything that i haven't considered?
1 - One of the things is use the Rage power; if an enemy starts near him, he attacks (and probably hits) the enemy and then he will push back the enemy... In this case, the enemy could use the 5' step and then... A) he continues his attack, because it was declared before? B) he must choose to do (if he can) a second attack, because the first one was out of reach and he lost it?...
- And, if the enemy tries to do another second attack, the barbarian will use the feat again, pushing the enemy away 5' and the enemy will loose the rest of the attacks, ever...?
- And, if the enemy has done the 5' step to reach the barbarian (because the barbarian in the last turn attacked him and then used the 5' step to walk away from the enemy), and then the barbarian uses rage power+feat.. the enemy loses all its turn?
Because you can choose if you do an action attack or a full action attack, but you can't choose between a 5' step and a movement; so, if you have declared (and used) a 5' step, you cannot use a movement action (i mean, to move).
What is more, if 6 enemies charge against him and he has got enough aoo's, they will loose their turn, after receive, each, an attack with a +4 to attack and damage...
I don't find it very fair. Then, from now on, the melee enemies are completely castrated from this point...?
I feel like there's a slight misunderstanding with what you're asking here. I'm going to answer the question I think you're asking. One rule to keep in mind is that you Can make a 5-foot-step during a full attack action.
I'm going to call the 2 characters Barbarian and Enemy, and that Enemy and Barbarian begin adjacent to one another.
Enemy declares a full-attack against Barbarian .
First attack, Come and Get Me is triggered and the Barbarian gets an Attack of Opportunity before the triggering attack. This AoO also triggers Pushing Assault and pushes the enemy back 5-feet. Enemy is now 5-feet away from Barbarian and must make a 5-foot-step in order to continue attacking. Remember that you CAN make a 5-foot-step during a full attack action, so this is fine. Enemy 5-foot-steps and continues the full attack, delivering the FIRST attack. This doesn't trigger an AoO for CaGM because it already did . Remember that CaGM gives all enemies a +4 to hit and damage against Barbarian, so add those bonuses.
Now the enemy goes to deliver his Second iterative attack, which triggers an AoO because of CaGM. The AoO pushes Enemy 5 feet away, which is now too far away to continue attacking. The enemy has already 5-foot stepped and so the second iterative attack is lost.
The Enemy has now comitted to a full attack action, so if he has no other targets available he cannot make his 3rd attack. Note that if there is another PC withing reach of the Enemy's new position he could make his 3rd attack against that PC instead of Barbarian.
There are a few caveats to this:
If the enemy has the ability to continue attacking from 10 feet away they can continue to do so without moving in. If they can attack from a position where the Barbarian can't attack back then the Barbarian can't make AoOs, as he doesn't threaten the enemy.
If the enemy has the Quick Draw feat or a similar ability they could use it to draw a ranged weapon and continue the full attack, thus getting their 3rd iterative attack . If the enemy is intelligent they would probably switch to a ranged attack after being pushed away once, although they may not assume the Barbarian has Combat Reflexes - they would certainly change tactics after realising what's happening if they have the means.
If the Enemy was using a melee weapon that can be thrown then the Enemy could continue his full attack action by throwing the dagger. I believe he could even throw the dagger as his second iterative attack after being pushed back 5 feet, as the attack was declared with that weapon but it can still be used from the new position, but I'm not 100% sure on that point.
Finally, the Enemy doesn't have to commit to a full attack action until after the first attack has been resolved. They could decide NOT to 5 foot step in and instead go attack someone else. Or they could decide to move away while drawing a ranged weapon so that they can bombard the Barbarian next round. Or whatever else they can do with a move and swift action. Once they have made the 5-foot-step they're locked in place, but they could still decide to use a move action as long as it doesn't involve actual movement.
Now as to denying all 6 enemies their turns, the Barbarian would have to have at least 6 AoOs per turn to accomplish this . With just Combat Reflexes this would require 20 DEX, which is quite high for a Barbarian. It's possible - even probable - that he's also using the Quick Reflexes Rage Power which gives 1 extra AoO per round, and if an ally was casting Cat's Grace he could achieve 6 AoOs per round with a base DEX of 14 . So we'll assume that he actually can do all this, but double check that he's not using more AoOs per round than he actually has.
Now even if he has 6 AoOs per round, if all 6 enemies begin the round adjacent to him then he would need 2 AoOs to completely negate each enemy's turn. This means he could negate 3 of them but he would be out of AoOs after that and wouldn't be able to defend himself anymore, just giving the final 3 enemies +4 to hit and +4 to damage against him. If we use our earlier example of Enemies with a +11 BAB, this would mean that he would negate 6 of 18 attacks during the round leaving him to face 12 attacks, all of which benefit from the bonus to attack and damage . This seems perfectly reasonable to me in those circumstances.
Now a note about Barbarians in general, and Come and Get Me in particular: Barbarians are very powerful in melee, and Come and Get Me is probably the strongest offensive Rage Power in the game. At this point the Barbarian goes from being one of the best damage output classes in the game to being THE best damage output class in the game. Barbarians at this level are less like a tanky wrestler and more Hercules. There's no getting around that, you can either ban all their options and nerf them into oblivion or accept that the the Wizard is Doctor Strange, the Cleric is Thor and the Barbarian is The Hulk. It's fine, they have their chance to shine and murder everyone in the room because that's what they're built for. As to how this interacts with Pushing Assault, just be glad they haven't started using Dazing Assault, as that WILL just negate enemy turns. Remember that this combo is giving enemies +4 to hit and +4 to damage, and is reducing the Barbarian's damage output in favour of battlefield control. The Wizard could do the same with Wall spells or something similar, and the Cleric has Greater Forbid Action by this point, which can render encounters harmless with a single standard action.
Ey, first of all thank you for all the responses; i've got no time just now (today i'm gonna be Master until 21.00 and later i will be a player in Council of Thieves the rest of the night), so i've only read and i only want to thank for your ideas, opinions... I will explain and reply, presumably, tomorrow (that i'll have some time to read carefully averything again).
Second of all... i'm very sorry for my english; i'm from Spain and i try to write the better i can; so, if i see i haven't explained anything correctly, i will try to explain it again...
So, i beg for your patience ^^U bacause i've read many interesting things in your posts, but actually i cannot answert to them. Tomorrow i will... that's what i expect ^^U
But thank you very much!!! I really appreciate everything! Wish me luck for a funny game!
BTW,i'm playing since 1994; I've played AD&D, D&D 3rd, D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1st; i like to roll the stats and my barbarian just had two 18's; one in strenght (+2 human) and the other one in dextrity... yes, dextrity 18+2 from a belt, 20... this is why he has 6 aoo's
The fact that Come And Get Me can negate the first 6 enemies to move and attack you, or negate most of the first 3 enemies to *full attack* you, while dishing out *SO* much damage, is plenty of evidence to show how ridiculously over powered it is. And that doesn't count all the attacks negated by slaughtering the enemies entirely. Equivalent to a fireball and slow spell for just your AoOs and (maybe) some hp.
You *do* have it pretty well figured out Haides.
If it's just too much for you, a very reasonable rule would be a creature that already moved this turn who gets shoved back, could continue it's movement, since the AoO/Pushing Assault all resolves *before* the attack.
The fact that Come And Get Me can negate the first 6 enemies to move and attack you, or negate most of the first 3 enemies to *full attack* you, while dishing out *SO* much damage, is plenty of evidence to show how ridiculously over powered it is. And that doesn't count all the attacks negated by slaughtering the enemies entirely. Equivalent to a fireball and slow spell for just your AoOs and (maybe) some hp.
Just to argue this: Yes CaGM is powerful, but this isn't just CaGM. You've got CaGM, Combat Reflexes and Pushing Assault . On top of that you're putting resources into DEX for AoOs, which othereise you could spend elsewhere. Yes you deal damage while negating enemy turns, but there are penalties associated. You're taking an attack penalty from Power Attack but you're not getting the bonus to damage hecause of Pushing Assault, so your damage-per-attack is reduced in favour of getting more attacks and negating enemy attacks. You're also Giving all enemies a bonus to attack and damage, which means that if you miss, or if they can attack you anyway then you're increasing the damage dealt to yourself. You're trading attack bonuses and defense for more attacks and repositioning opportunities. Yes it's good, but you've spent at least 3 feats, some of your stat points/rolls and a high level level Rage Power on this, it Should be good.
If it's just too much for you, a very reasonable rule would be a creature that already moved this turn who gets shoved back, could continue it's movement, since the AoO/Pushing Assault all resolves *before* the attack.
Having said that, this isn't totally unreasonable. It's also worth noting that an enemy who is charging you could still continue the charge even if you knock them back .
@Majub I agree CAGM is powerful, but it's small beer in comparison to what the flying improved invisibly wizard can do at this stage. How does dazing selective stone call sound for no-save aoe action denial sound? Granted that needs a trait to make it a level 5 spell. Alternatively they could have invested in dazing ball lightning and still have a standard action to cast something else each round.
In the same combat the wizard probably acted first and could have summoned in CR6 monsters to divide and conquer, hasted the barbarian or cast persistent slow etc... etc... Ad nausium.
Clerics with alternative channel can also do disgusting things like impose selective AOE daze or nausea and they can potentially do that multiple times as a swift action.
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The term game breaking is overused, especially when it comes to high level characters. Characters that are 11th level or higher are considered legendary. The game may go all the way up to 20th level but the in reality once you get above 10th level your character is supposed to be a lot more powerful than normal. The vast majority of characters are 5th level or lower. From 6th level to 12th level, you are one of the most powerful characters in a nation. Characters above 12th level will become myths and be remembered centuries after they are dead. At 13th level you are in the realm of Hercules, Lancelot and Roland.
A 12th level barbarian should be able to mow through his enemies. This character is Conan the Barbarian, Not Bob the berserker.
considering that at level 9 a cleric can use greater command to "halt" (or 'fall' or 'flee') up to 9 creatures for up to 9 rounds (aka forever) if they fail their save (and 12 for 12 at level 12) -i don't see this combo as over powerful.
it's useful against creatures up to the barbarian size that have no ranged attacks. at level 12 if they go against a barbarian without any ranged attack or size that matter, they get what they deserve.
The fact that Come And Get Me can negate the first 6 enemies to move and attack you, or negate most of the first 3 enemies to *full attack* you, while dishing out *SO* much damage, is plenty of evidence to show how ridiculously over powered it is. And that doesn't count all the attacks negated by slaughtering the enemies entirely. Equivalent to a fireball and slow spell for just your AoOs and (maybe) some hp.
- Unlike Fireball and Slow, however, it only works for opponents in your reach, whereas a caster can stand 50ft away. Also, comparing something that came online at 5th level to something that came online at 12th level is a warped comparison.
Something to remember is that CaGM works on all attacks, not just melee ones - archers will have a fiald day against such a Barbarian. And with three feats and a Rage Power invested, the Barbarian is unlikely to also have Greater Beast Totem and Greater Elemental Blood.
You're misusing the term "over powered", because it can't exist in a vacuum - things can only be overpowered in comparison to something else, and Pathfinder doesn't have fixed reference points. Something can be OP in one campaign and totally fine in an other.
i like to roll the stats and my barbarian just had two 18's; one in strenght (+2 human) and the other one in dextrity... yes, dextrity 18+2 from a belt, 20... this is why he has 6 aoo's
You made the bed, now lie in it. Seriously, this one's on you. It's like getting a 40 year old vintage car, and then complaining that it has a low miles per gallon, and no air condition. If you use an outdated, primitive, objectively terrible system that breaks core principles of the game, you don't really have a right to complain about it!
As far as i see the results, i see that he is breaking part of the game.
That is entirely possible. It's not hard to be "game breaking" in Pathfinder, because the power level of a campign, and of a group, are extremely variable. If the character is notably stronger than either the other party members, or in comparison to the opponents faced, this can indeed make the game unfun to play and/or GM. APs are made to be playable by notably unoptimized characters, it's really easy to have a party that steamrolls over everything. My group actually stopped playing Carrion Crown because our party was just too efficient, decinding most encounters in the first round.
You should carefully evaluate whether the character is indeed too strong, and if so work with the player to tone it down a bit (allowing the player to retrain CaGM or Pushing Assault, for example). Maybe talk with the entire group and ask what they think.
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@Majub I agree CAGM is powerful, but it's small beer in comparison to what the flying improved invisibly wizard can do at this stage. How does dazing selective stone call sound for no-save aoe action denial sound? Granted that needs a trait to make it a level 5 spell. Alternatively they could have invested in dazing ball lightning and still have a standard action to cast something else each round.
In the same combat the wizard probably acted first and could have summoned in CR6 monsters to divide and conquer, hasted the barbarian or cast persistent slow etc... etc... Ad nausium.
Clerics with alternative channel can also do disgusting things like impose selective AOE daze or nausea and they can potentially do that multiple times as a swift action.
As a guy trying to daze opponents appropriate for a 12th-level character with a 2nd-level spell that deals bludgeoning damage.
Sure, it targets the Will save and several opponents have a weak Will save, but the DC is 12+the caster stat bonus.Plus, any form of DR besides DR/bludgeoning will have a good chance to reduce the damage to 0, negating the dazing effect.
Summoning spells have 1 round CT, and the wizard will not be invisible and flying if he is casting a summoning spell.
Naturally, if you always assume that a caster will know his opponent in advance, has the right spells in his spellbook, and the correct feats, sure, a wizard is "invincible".