Level 5 Kineticist Playtest conclusions

[roquepo]

Our playtest play was done at levels 5, 9 and 14. 2 fights for each level. So far we completed the level 5 fights and 1 fight of both of the other levels. In this thread I will write my thoughts on the class after seeing it in play (I also talked with the GM and the other Kineticist and they mostly agreed with my conclusions).

Our party had 5 members. 2 kineticists, 1 dual gate one with water and wind elements (me) and an earth-only kineticist; a STR rogue, a fighter and a Cosmos Oracle. We were also playtesting homebrew ancestries on the Oracle and Fighter, so take that in mind when going over the post.

I don't know the particulars of the other Kineticist's build, but i will also talk about my impressions of the abilities he used (At this level, the earth Blast, Tremor and Restoring Mud mostly).

On my part, my Kineticist had the following stats and feats:

Stats: 14STR 18DEX 19CON 8INT 16WIS 10CHA (Leshy)

Class Feats

Lvl 1: Flexible Blasts
Lvl 1: Aerial Boomerang
Lvl 1: Tidal Hands
Lvl 2: Air Cushion
Lvl 4: Flinging Updraft

For both combats we started with one element gathered at first. I started the first one with Air, the second one with Water. We beat both combats, the first one very easily, the second one with almost a dead fighter.

The scenarios

The first combat took place in 2 parallel ships surrounded by water. A pirate crew was trying to raid ours. The ships were difficult terrain due to the movement for us but not for the pirates, as they were used to this kind of situation. They were all a bunch of low level enemies (There were 7 of them). We focused our strategy around throwing them to the water so they would have a hard time reaching the moving ships. Flinging Updraft felt amazing here, even if it only works on failed saves. Between that and shoves, we pushed 3 enemies far enough that they were left behind. The others were dealt with really soon afterwards. The other Kineticist mostly used melee Blasts (he wanted to provide flanking to the Rogue and the fighter, I think) and Shoves. He used Tremor in the first round, but it didn't felt impactful enough (the low area makes the difficult terrain a mild inconveniece at best, like with Scatter Scree, and the damage was pretty low). During the first 3 rounds I mostly used Flinging Updraft, but i sneaked in an Aerial Boomerang that hit 2 enemies that felt OK (damage was still low-ish, but it didn't felt like a waste of actions). After a 4th round in which i only blasted, I killed the last enemy with a second Boomerang after failing an Air Blast.

The second combat took place in a forest, with some bushes,trees and rocks. There was also a river but we moved away from it really quickly so it was a non-factor during combat. The enemies were 2 Owlbears (we use owlbears as a sort of benchmark at low levels) and a Manticore. First round I used Flinging Updraft to jump from the river over a wall to land closer to the enemies and attack with the Air blast. The 120 ft felt good, but also a bit excesive. The other Kineticist just moved into position and waited. The fighter took the front lines and thus the monsters jumped on him. After they were grouped, I used Aerial Boomerang, hitting the Manticore and 1 Owlbear. I thought about using Flinging Updraft again as the fighter was grabbed by one of the owlbears, but I decided against it since it was also immobilized by the Manticore strikes. On the way back it hit 1 enemy as well. The other Kineticist attacked at range during that second turn and used Restoring Mud to bring back the Fighter that just felt unconscius (some unlucky crits downed him at the beginning of the third round). The healing at range part felt powerful, but the amount healed was ridicule. Iirc he 3rd and 4rth turn he used Blast + Restoring mud again, once on me and once on the Rogue. The last two turns I switched to water and used Tidal Hands twice, with a Water blast thrown in there as well, I was also grabbed, which felt horrible due to the Impulse trait inner workings. In one of those uses, I hit the Oracle with tidal wave. He succeeded in his save, taking the frightening amount of 2 damage after applying the damage reduction it has due to its curse.

Conclusions

So, for my level 5 observations:

Overflow abilities damage is low. Not by a large marging at these levels (you don't feel like you are wasting actions at least), but it is low indeed. Aerial Boomerang felt better than Tidal Hands, which felt better than Tremor. Blast damage is also low, even more so than the save abilities, and only being trained felt completely unnecessary and uncalled for.

Single element makes no sense, they barely get any benefit compared to dual. Same thing applies when comparing Dual and and universal. All of these should get another wave of free feats later on (and maybe a unique action economy enhancer as well at mid levels).

The bad action economy of the class at these levels felt somewhat justified (in a world were it dealt a good amount of damage, that is), but as we soon would confirm, that is not the case the higher the level you go. The healing capabilities are also really low considering you can only use them once per fight, they are barely worth the actions.

Flexible Blast feels mandatory for most builds, so it should be baked into the class. The class also needs Medium Armor proficiency.

Water and Wind being completely physical element choices at this level feels wrong.

The impulse trait is too restrictive for the class. Not only you trigger things like AoO with everything you do, but you also feel misserable when you are grabbed. This needs to go.

Flinging Updraft feels great at these levels. It should work as a sort of benchmark for utility impulses at low levels IMO.

As for my recomendations:

Damaging save impulses need CON to damage at these levels (and way more later on, but I will reach that on another post). Blasts need not only to be better overall (more die damage, better traits),but also add CON to damage as well (Maybe full CON for melee and half CON for ranged).

Kineticist needs Expert at 5 with their blasts.

Some impulses need better effects on top, not only damage. Healing need to heal more (or add more temp health), they are barely worth the actions they cost.

Impulse trait should not have the manipulate train on it.

Add cold/lightning damage to water and Wind, at least on the save effects. Also, everything targetting reflexes is boring and deletes the biggest strength targetting saves has, being able to choose. Add some fort targetting impulses as well.

When we finish the 2 combats we have left I will write a similar post for my level 9 and 14 thoughts (spoiler, they are not particularly positive so far).

[keftiu]

Thorough, thoughtful feedback supported by clear math. I really appreciate this!

[Nefreet]

Thanks for the update! Be sure to also complete the survey, just in case you haven't.

[roquepo]

Nefreet wrote:

Thanks for the update! Be sure to also complete the survey, just in case you haven't.

I just did, thanks for the reminder.

[Dubious Scholar]

Air and water do get some electric and cold impulses, though I don't think water gets a straight blasting cold option - both auras can deal cold damage.

I absolutely agree on the damage for blasts. Aerial Boomerang and Tidal Hands I'm not entirely sure need more... but a lot of the other blasts are direly in need of more. Adding CON for some flat damage early on wouldn't hurt.

(My logic on Tidal Hands, for instance, is that it's a bit under 50% more damage than electric arc in the long run, for 50% more actions. Aerial Boomerang is equal damage, but I'm having a hard time judging how much the return shot will hit just mathing it, if you get 2 hits out and 1 back consistently, the damage is again 50% more damage for 50% more actions, roughly... though I'd happily swap a die for CON mod on these level 1 blasts for consistency)

[roquepo]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Air and water do get some electric and cold impulses, though I don't think water gets a straight blasting cold option - both auras can deal cold damage.

Air does not get any electric damage at level 5 and water only gets the aura. I think that feels lackluster.

Quote:

I absolutely agree on the damage for blasts. Aerial Boomerang and Tidal Hands I'm not entirely sure need more... but a lot of the other blasts are direly in need of more. Adding CON for some flat damage early on wouldn't hurt.

(My logic on Tidal Hands, for instance, is that it's a bit under 50% more damage than electric arc in the long run, for 50% more actions. Aerial Boomerang is equal damage, but I'm having a hard time judging how much the return shot will hit just mathing it, if you get 2 hits out and 1 back consistently, the damage is again 50% more damage for 50% more actions, roughly... though I'd happily swap a die for CON mod on these level 1 blasts for consistency)

Cantrips are what casters use when they don't want to waste their slots that actually do good damage. Kineticist max output right now is low at this level even with Boomerang (and a joke at higher levels). If we are comparing the impulses to cantrips, we are set for failure, since casters can do way more than just cantrips. Is a caster that can only use cantrips in exchange of a slighly better weapon proficiency doing enough?

About Boomerang specifically, I think it is hard to hit twice with it unless your party is using some extra CC on top. Most monsters can get good value in most situations by moving out of it and position themselves better in general. They loose an action they don't mind loosing, basically. When it hits twice it does feel good, though.

[Sanityfaerie]

Even without the bit about setting up the return hit, just getting two on the way out is a bit more of a hassle with boomerang than hitting twice is with EA. After all, if you have to spend an action repositioning to get two in a row (which is reasonably likely) then suddenly it's four actions.

[Dubious Scholar]

That's a good point about the positioning.

The potential on Boomerang can still justify lower initial hit damage I think because the return hit is so good... I've been wondering if it should return at end of next turn instead though and how that would impact it.

But across the board, most blasts don't even reach the damage of cantrips, much less the 50%+ more damage they should have for action expenditure (the class doesn't generally provide the action economy support to justify lower damage until very late levels - universal gate's gather amalgam aside).

[Verzen]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Air and water do get some electric and cold impulses, though I don't think water gets a straight blasting cold option - both auras can deal cold damage.

I absolutely agree on the damage for blasts. Aerial Boomerang and Tidal Hands I'm not entirely sure need more... but a lot of the other blasts are direly in need of more. Adding CON for some flat damage early on wouldn't hurt.

(My logic on Tidal Hands, for instance, is that it's a bit under 50% more damage than electric arc in the long run, for 50% more actions. Aerial Boomerang is equal damage, but I'm having a hard time judging how much the return shot will hit just mathing it, if you get 2 hits out and 1 back consistently, the damage is again 50% more damage for 50% more actions, roughly... though I'd happily swap a die for CON mod on these level 1 blasts for consistency)

You'd have to hit 4 enemies with boomerang for the action cost and 3 enemies with tidal hands to be better than electric arc on avg

[Verzen]

And electric arc deals 6.5 dmg on avg while tidal hands deals 7 and boomerang deals 5.

So tidal hands on avg deals more slightly for 50% more actions.

It should deal, on avg, 6.5*1.5 = 9.75 or roughly 10 damage on avg.

If we added con to damage that would be 2d6+4 or 6 - 18 damage aka 12 damage per target hit. Might be slightky overtuned. But right now it's way undertuned.

[Dubious Scholar]

Verzen wrote:

And electric arc deals 6.5 dmg on avg while tidal hands deals 7 and boomerang deals 5.

So tidal hands on avg deals more slightly for 50% more actions.

It should deal, on avg, 6.5*1.5 = 9.75 or roughly 10 damage on avg.

If we added con to damage that would be 2d6+4 or 6 - 18 damage aka 12 damage per target hit. Might be slightky overtuned. But right now it's way undertuned.

Boomerang scales at the same rate as Electric arc - +1d4 every two levels. Electric arc just starts at 1d4+4 instead of 2d4. If Boomerang gets 3 total hits, it's roughly on par with Electric arc for the action cost.

Tidal Hands is 2d6, +1d6 every two levels, so it scales faster than Electric Arc. At 20, it's doing 11d6 for 3 actions, while Electric Arc does 10d4+7 maximum. 38.5 versus 32... bleh, the gap doesn't really widen enough I guess because of the extra 3 points flat damage from stats (if arc was 2d4, it would be a consistent 40% damage gap)

...okay yeah, that's still not quite enough. Tidal Hands ends at merely 20% higher damage because of that. Huh, bumping it to d8s would be enough though, you end at 11d8 for 49.5 average, a 55% power boost over EA per target. I guess it depends on how you value the AoE versus individual target damage. Should the class use strikes for single target and only use overflow for groups? Then it doesn't need to be exactly a 50% boost, at least assuming we get some kind of martial damage bonus on strikes (which currently is missing entirely).

I know I'm leaning conservative in terms of blast damage overall, though. Aerial Boomerang is the one that's hardest for me to evaluate though for obvious reasons.

[Verzen]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Verzen wrote:

And electric arc deals 6.5 dmg on avg while tidal hands deals 7 and boomerang deals 5.

So tidal hands on avg deals more slightly for 50% more actions.

It should deal, on avg, 6.5*1.5 = 9.75 or roughly 10 damage on avg.

If we added con to damage that would be 2d6+4 or 6 - 18 damage aka 12 damage per target hit. Might be slightky overtuned. But right now it's way undertuned.

Boomerang scales at the same rate as Electric arc - +1d4 every two levels. Electric arc just starts at 1d4+4 instead of 2d4. If Boomerang gets 3 total hits, it's roughly on par with Electric arc for the action cost.

Tidal Hands is 2d6, +1d6 every two levels, so it scales faster than Electric Arc. At 20, it's doing 11d6 for 3 actions, while Electric Arc does 10d4+7 maximum. 38.5 versus 32... bleh, the gap doesn't really widen enough I guess because of the extra 3 points flat damage from stats (if arc was 2d4, it would be a consistent 40% damage gap)

...okay yeah, that's still not quite enough. Tidal Hands ends at merely 20% higher damage because of that. Huh, bumping it to d8s would be enough though, you end at 11d8 for 49.5 average, a 55% power boost over EA per target. I guess it depends on how you value the AoE versus individual target damage. Should the class use strikes for single target and only use overflow for groups? Then it doesn't need to be exactly a 50% boost, at least assuming we get some kind of martial damage bonus on strikes (which currently is missing entirely).

I know I'm leaning conservative in terms of blast damage overall, though. Aerial Boomerang is the one that's hardest for me to evaluate though for obvious reasons.

1d4+4 is better than 2d4.

[Verzen]

For one more action. The boomerang on the way back might not hit any targets. People will just move away.

[Verzen]

"If Boomerang gets 3 total hits, it's roughly on par with Electric arc for the action cost."

No. It's not. 5/3= 1.66

6.5 vs 1.66 = 4 targets. Not 3.

It's also harder to target 4 than it is for 2 from electric arc.

[Verzen]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Verzen wrote:

And electric arc deals 6.5 dmg on avg while tidal hands deals 7 and boomerang deals 5.

So tidal hands on avg deals more slightly for 50% more actions.

It should deal, on avg, 6.5*1.5 = 9.75 or roughly 10 damage on avg.

If we added con to damage that would be 2d6+4 or 6 - 18 damage aka 12 damage per target hit. Might be slightky overtuned. But right now it's way undertuned.

Boomerang scales at the same rate as Electric arc - +1d4 every two levels. Electric arc just starts at 1d4+4 instead of 2d4. If Boomerang gets 3 total hits, it's roughly on par with Electric arc for the action cost.

Tidal Hands is 2d6, +1d6 every two levels, so it scales faster than Electric Arc. At 20, it's doing 11d6 for 3 actions, while Electric Arc does 10d4+7 maximum. 38.5 versus 32... bleh, the gap doesn't really widen enough I guess because of the extra 3 points flat damage from stats (if arc was 2d4, it would be a consistent 40% damage gap)

...okay yeah, that's still not quite enough. Tidal Hands ends at merely 20% higher damage because of that. Huh, bumping it to d8s would be enough though, you end at 11d8 for 49.5 average, a 55% power boost over EA per target. I guess it depends on how you value the AoE versus individual target damage. Should the class use strikes for single target and only use overflow for groups? Then it doesn't need to be exactly a 50% boost, at least assuming we get some kind of martial damage bonus on strikes (which currently is missing entirely).

I know I'm leaning conservative in terms of blast damage overall, though. Aerial Boomerang is the one that's hardest for me to evaluate though for obvious reasons.

38.5/ 3 and 32/2

11d6 vs 10d4+7 = 17 to 64 damage using ONE action since it's to TWO different targets that deals on avg 32 damage per target.

11d6 is 66+11 or 77/6 or 12.83 damage per action per target.

[Verzen]

So 64 total damage / 2 for actions and 2 for avg = 16 avg damage per action per target.