My thoughts and suggestions after making and playing


Kineticist Class


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hi everyone,

I've always read and theory crafted during these playtests, but this was the first time I actually got to play a playtest character. I've taken the survey but thought I'd share some of thoughts after playing the class.

It was a lvl 6 dungeon run, my character being a Dual Gate of Earth and Water. We encountered numerous Giant Crawling hands, along with a few Crawling Hand Swarms. The big bad of our dungeon was a Stone Giant with the Cryptid template from Dark Archives (So a +3 enemy, Sever Encounter).

Giant Crawling Hands & Crawling Hands Swarm
I can honestly say that this felt great. 1e Kineticist I didn't feel like an element master as much as I was just a high powered sniper. Last night I felt like I was in control of Earth and Water. Being able to chuck boulders down a 30ft line, force moving or dropping prone big undead hands. Spraying water jets in two different directions at swarms of hands triggering the area weakness. Even from a utility standpoint, I was able to get good use out of my water talents to move allies around with Water Dance, letting them get into more tactical positions (or just getting away from the swarms without spending their own actions). In this situation, I don't feel like you could replace me with another class and get the same results or get the same result at the same cost (Casters spending spell slots on cone effects for example. Same result, heavier cost).

Stone Giant Cryptid
This one was a much tougher fight, mostly due to low rolls. None of my abilities made me stand out beyond the occasional Water Dance an ally away if they were getting into to much trouble. I could probably have been replaced with another class and gotten the same result. My attacks were struggling to meet the AC 27 creature, even with Bless and Flanking. The others were having the same issue. I can't really fault that on the class. Our Time Oracle was the MVP of this fight, no complains from me.

End Thoughts
I love the class. I think this is a great starting point for it. My only issue, which many people have pointed out already, is that our Key stat is Con but we don't really use it that much. Several of my feats use Class DC, which uses Con, but class features kinda ignore it. Beyond that though, I didn't feel like I needed much changing. A second suggestion/request I made in the survey was for dual blasts (or solo enhanced blasts). See below.

Class DC potential changes
I'm not entirely sure what can be done to give Con more value to the class. A few ideas that come to mind, in order of how much I like the idea.
1) Temp HP equal to half level + Con whenever you use an Overflow ability.
2) Con to Damage on Kinetic melee Blasts, and allowing the propulsive trait on ranged Kinetic Blasts to go off Con instead of Str.
3) Some ability that allows you to ignore the Overflow trait a number of times equal to your Con score per day. So you could Overflow without ending your Gather Energy.

Dual Blasts/Enhanced Blasts
1e Kineticist, when they gained access to another element, also gained stronger blasts that merged the elements together. That was the one thing that actually felt missing from the class to me. In 1e's case, me having Earth and Water should also give me a more powerful Mud Blast. I think this can easily be done right out of the gate by giving these more powerful blasts the Overflow trait. I can earth blast, water blast, or an Overflow Mud Blast.

Anyway, I'm not sure how useful or useless all this info is. But thought that since I got the chance to play the class, I'd share my own experience with it. Happy to answer any questions about my experience/thoughts.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Personally I think 'mud blast' should be given right out of the gate, but not necessarily "stronger" than either one. But I DO think you should lose access to earth and water and ONLY cast mud blast. That way you're literally a mud kineticist.. and any impulse you do has both the earth and water traits. Dual would literally be the hybrid user rather than using each element by itself.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Verzen wrote:
Personally I think 'mud blast' should be given right out of the gate, but not necessarily "stronger" than either one. But I DO think you should lose access to earth and water and ONLY cast mud blast. That way you're literally a mud kineticist.. and any impulse you do has both the earth and water traits. Dual would literally be the hybrid user rather than using each element by itself.

I feel like that would be a bit much mechanically and linguistically. At least for launch. Cause then you would be opening the gates for all the combinations. And Universal then feels like the odd one out. Solo Gate is a master of one, duo would be a fusion of two, universal would have multiple like duo but not be able to fuse them? So now alot of language needs to be created specifically for duo.

Personally I liked having two elements, and would enjoy having the option to fuse them. Me attaching Overflow to Mudblast is my justification for making it a stronger blast, which was the original point of those blasts in 1e. New traits and maybe some sort of effect (Like Fort Save or be slowed 1 on crit with mud blast for 1 round).

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
xNellynelx wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Personally I think 'mud blast' should be given right out of the gate, but not necessarily "stronger" than either one. But I DO think you should lose access to earth and water and ONLY cast mud blast. That way you're literally a mud kineticist.. and any impulse you do has both the earth and water traits. Dual would literally be the hybrid user rather than using each element by itself.

I feel like that would be a bit much mechanically and linguistically. At least for launch. Cause then you would be opening the gates for all the combinations. And Universal then feels like the odd one out. Solo Gate is a master of one, duo would be a fusion of two, universal would have multiple like duo but not be able to fuse them? So now alot of language needs to be created specifically for duo.

Personally I liked having two elements, and would enjoy having the option to fuse them. Me attaching Overflow to Mudblast is my justification for making it a stronger blast, which was the original point of those blasts in 1e. New traits and maybe some sort of effect (Like Fort Save or be slowed 1 on crit with mud blast).

Universal should be the jack of all trades, master of none.

Dual should be combining two elements and giving both traits to all impulses along with damage types to both impulses.

Dedicated should be able to do their own element, but really well or more efficient or having stronger impulses that are more focused.

A lot of language wouldn't be needed for dual. All you would need is, "All your impulses are a hybridization between the two elements you've chosen with your dual gate. Each impulse you use is now a combination of the two elements. Exchange each instance that references an element with a combination of the two. Earth and water would be mud, for example. Each impulse gains both traits and deals their respective damage types. An fire impulse that dealt fire damage now deals both fire and bludgeoning damage if your other element that was chosen is water.

Or something similar to that.

It's quick, it's easy, doesn't require much design space. All it would do is add traits and damage types mechanically to all your impulses.


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What happens if an enemy is weak to water but immune to fire and you hit them when the fire water

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
What happens if an enemy is weak to water but immune to fire and you hit them when the fire water

Good question. I suppose the designers would have to figure it out and put it in the text as well.

If something was immune to fire, but weak to water, would steam hurt them?


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I would either give it versatile or a version of concussive. The big problem with that is that now dual gates just have objectively better blasts, so you would need to give something to the other gates to compensate. but "both types at once" just seems too hard to do without just reprinting the concussive trait with a new name.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
What happens if an enemy is weak to water but immune to fire and you hit them when the fire water

Good question. I suppose the designers would have to figure it out and put it in the text as well.

If something was immune to fire, but weak to water, would steam hurt them?

You don't see how that doesn't work in this system withoutdoing a massive errata?


Martialmasters wrote:
What happens if an enemy is weak to water but immune to fire and you hit them when the fire water

I would have them take only their weakness in damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Adding Traits at no cost could upset balance. Weaker attacks tend to get more traits while stronger attacks fewer.

Letting me freely fuse Air and Earth would give me a D? (Air is D4 and earth is D8, so what would this fusion be) attack that is Agile and finesse, but also forceful allowing me to ramp up damage on consecutive hits, which is now easier because of Agile. At that point, it's almost not worth being a solo element or universal element, when the strongest blasts come from duo because they have all the traits in one blast.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
xNellynelx wrote:

Adding Traits at no cost could upset balance. Weaker attacks tend to get more traits while stronger attacks fewer.

Letting me freely fuse Air and Earth would give me a D? (Air is D4 and earth is D8, so what would this fusion be) attack that is Agile and finesse, but also forceful allowing me to ramp up damage on consecutive hits, which is now easier because of Agile. At that point, it's almost not worth being a solo element or universal element, when the strongest blasts come from duo because they have all the traits in one blast.

Again. I'd create 21 weap types.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Verzen wrote:
xNellynelx wrote:

Adding Traits at no cost could upset balance. Weaker attacks tend to get more traits while stronger attacks fewer.

Letting me freely fuse Air and Earth would give me a D? (Air is D4 and earth is D8, so what would this fusion be) attack that is Agile and finesse, but also forceful allowing me to ramp up damage on consecutive hits, which is now easier because of Agile. At that point, it's almost not worth being a solo element or universal element, when the strongest blasts come from duo because they have all the traits in one blast.

Again. I'd create 21 weap types.

I see the train of thought, but personally disagree with it. I'd personally rather a stronger optional blast with Overflow, rather than a weaker blast with the traits of both parent blasts. Especially when the original kinetecist dual blasts were designed to be a stronger blast with a cost (burn).

I dunno, I feel like there is more work in making weaker merged blasts specifically for duo without making duo feel weaker than the other two options, as opposed to giving everyone access to stronger blasts (Solo elements in 1e got a stronger blast that was basically double the same element. A solo Air Elementalist would have an Overflow Thunderstorm Blast)

That's my 2 cents on that end anyway. Whichever way they go, I do thank you for the opinion though. I've been enjoying this discussion.

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I just want my pure lava kineticist or pure sand kineticist.

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