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What is the relationship between Zon Kuthon and the various Kyton Demagogues?
Did Aroggus and his Cenobites flee The Nine Hells for The Shadow Plane and found The Abbey of Nevers prior to Dou Bral's Fall from Righteousness? Or after (which seems less likely)?
If so, how did Aroggus (and by extension, Sugroz, Inkariax, Barravoclair, etc.) react to Zon Kuthon's appearance as a deity in The Shadow Plane?
Thanks everyone in advance for your thoughts!
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Ultimately, I'm trying to get more information on this so I can better decide which of these Shadow / Pain / Torture Cenobites to use in which specific situations. My PCs are going to have to deal with themes and tones of X,Y,Z while we campaign in The Shadow Plane, so,.... Should I pick Aroggus or Zon Kuthon as my BBEG's deity.
So, if Zon Kuthon is the Boss of the Kyton Demagogues -- which seems not quite right considering their various write-ups in print -- I wanna know. (The published material ignores it: when discussing Zon Kuthon on the Shadow Plane it pretends Aroggus doesn't even exist, worse, when the Kyton Demagogues are discussed, not even whisper of Zon Kuthon is implied.)
Creative Director
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The Shadow Plane is a big place. It's smaller than the universe, but not to an extent that would be noticeable to mortals.
There's room there for both Zon-Kuthon and the Velstracs. In my homebrew, Zon-Kuthon predates the appearance of the kytons in D&D, but he and the kytons were both inspired by Clive Barker's "Hellraiser," so they're similar.
So in my head, Zon-Kuthon and the Velstrac demagogues are separate groups, but Zon-Kuthon is immeasurably more powerful than the demagogues. He doesn't use that power to boss them around though. He has other things that interest him. And the demagogues don't antagonize him and do their own thing as well. They're parallel org charts, not in the same org chart.
Keep in mind that Golarion is NOT my homebrew, and I am NOT the only person who guides the world's lore, so anything said here might or might not be built upon, contradicted, revised, or ignored in upcoming products. So... How it works in your incarnation of Golarion is up to you, of course. Feel free to make Zon-Kuthon the boss of the demagogues or vice-versa, or to cut one of those two out entirely.
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Thank you very much.
Keep in mind that Golarion is NOT my homebrew.
100% understood.
Same thing when I ask Amber Stewart these kinds of questions. 100% understood.
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Your PCs just got dropped in The Shadow Plane (rather, "I" just dropped my PCs in The Shadow Plane) and they're gonna be there a while. I gotta pick one (or perhaps a couple) Powers to be the ones granting my BBEGs their Divine spells and such. What's a good reason to choose Zon Kuthon over Aroggus? What Flavor would push one to choose Kaikyton instead of Zon Kuthon?
Put another way:
All are equally LE
All are equally Shadow Plane
All are equally 'Torture / Darkness / Cenobite'
Zon Kuthon = ?
Aroggus = ran away from Hell to find sanctuary from the Devil, always hiding
Barravoclair = gains exaltation when someone takes his or her last breath
Inkariax = likes to freeze people in death like butterflies and gaze upon them
Sugroz = enjoys screaming pain and the sounds of torture
Vevelor = became a Kyton through really painful ritual & hates destiny
....And Zon Kuthon is, um, God of Pain
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They work in the same field. Sometimes they’re rivals, likely when the issue of competing for followers and souls comes up… but also, sometimes they share notes.
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I would think it's a friendly sort of rivalry, as friendly as lawful evil torture/pain being can be anyways.
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I believe that Zon-kuthon is, among other things, the example of what happens to a deity when they undergo the same evolution that gives birth to Shadowcallers. That is, they lose the Inner Light, which I believe to be the instinct for self-preservation.
This is something that does not seem to appear in the themes of the Kyton demagogues that you describe.
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My personal question from a world-building standpoint is: what are the -differences- between them? It seems extreme body modification, pain, chains, and black leather are shared traits inherited from Clive Barker (and wonderfully so), but what separates them?
Do they coincidentally share a visual theming, as Zon-Kuthon and many velstracs do, or do the demagogues emulate him due to his immense power? Is the way they treat beauty in pain, suffering as joy, etc; something inherent in being a velstrac and separate from what made Dou-Bral into ZK, or did they both perhaps experience or witness the same unknown that caused his unholy transformation? Is it something he shared with them after they left Hell?
In my personal world, I sort of lean to the latter; the velstracs coming to the Shadow Plane and being shown this new way, and then like disciples spreading off the share the pain in their own fashion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My personal question from a world-building standpoint is: what are the -differences- between them? It seems extreme body modification, pain, chains, and black leather are shared traits inherited from Clive Barker (and wonderfully so), but what separates them?
Do they coincidentally share a visual theming, as Zon-Kuthon and many velstracs do, or do the demagogues emulate him due to his immense power? Is the way they treat beauty in pain, suffering as joy, etc; something inherent in being a velstrac and separate from what made Dou-Bral into ZK, or did they both perhaps experience or witness the same unknown that caused his unholy transformation? Is it something he shared with them after they left Hell?
In my personal world, I sort of lean to the latter; the velstracs coming to the Shadow Plane and being shown this new way, and then like disciples spreading off the share the pain in their own fashion.
I believe their similarities stem from something fundamental to do with magical/planar Shadow, as alluded to in the Shadowcaster archetype's writeup: there is a fundamental light within the soul, and it can be lost. Its absence seems to draw those afflicted towards extremes of pain and disfigurement, apparently pulling them away from health and wholeness - concepts one can easily associate with Positive Energy. Slipping towards the side of whatever the opposite of the soul is... turns you into a torture freak if you give into it, or so it would seem.
Different lore from another game, but 4e's Shadowfell (their equivalent plane) deadened both emotions and sensations, leading many mortals who lived them to favor self-harm and body modifications, seeking intensity there and in other aspects of life "just to feel something," in a sense. I can easily imagine the same being true to an extent here, where the Negative vibe blots out all but the most transcendently potent feelings.
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I don’t think that’s the case for several reasons, but the most relevant of which is that no other shadow plane inhabitants are noted as being particularly predisposed towards self-mutilation. It seems to be a uniquely velatrac thing.
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My personal question from a world-building standpoint is: what are the -differences- between them? It seems extreme body modification, pain, chains, and black leather are shared traits inherited from Clive Barker (and wonderfully so), but what separates them?
Do they coincidentally share a visual theming, as Zon-Kuthon and many velstracs do, or do the demagogues emulate him due to his immense power? Is the way they treat beauty in pain, suffering as joy, etc; something inherent in being a velstrac and separate from what made Dou-Bral into ZK, or did they both perhaps experience or witness the same unknown that caused his unholy transformation? Is it something he shared with them after they left Hell?
In my personal world, I sort of lean to the latter; the velstracs coming to the Shadow Plane and being shown this new way, and then like disciples spreading off the share the pain in their own fashion.
i like that take.
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What I ended up doing in my campaign, since I felt kinda flat after the Thread, was make the Cenobites come first:
Aroggus, Barravoclair, Inkariax, Sugroz, Vevelor, etc., etc., were, you know, Cenobites that left The Nine Hells for The Shadow Plane and started doing their thing there.
Then, ages later, Dou Bral 'Fell' and pulled a 'Frank Cotton' playing with yada-yada Devil/Puzzle Box out in The Dark Tapestry and had the 'Fun-With-Possession' alluded to in Pathfinder Canon. Now Dou Bral is Zon Kuthon, The Midnight Lord.
So, it has a Shadow Plane themed correlation: On The Material Plane Aroden ascends to godhood w/ The Starstone, same with Iomedae, etc. On The Shadow Plane, the 'Shadow' version, Dou Bral descends to godhood in shadow/mirror universe.
It works for me.
Now, in gameplay at my table, I have a distinct set of Cenobite characters and their origins and designs that fit together nicely like, well, like a Devil/Puzzle Box. The Cenobites Aroggus, Barravoclair, Inkariax, Sugroz, Vevelor, etc., are distinct and different to Dou Bral. And Dou Bral has his specific and distinct place in The Shadow Plane and his rapport (or whatever) with the Cenobites.