Disappointingly Low Damage

[Temperans]

Also pre gather is mostly a dungeon thing. Imagine constanly having fire while walking down the street.

[Guntermench]

Guard!

[PossibleCabbage]

Temperans wrote:

Also pre gather is mostly a dungeon thing. Imagine constanly having fire while walking down the street.

I feel like any context in which you could justify having your weapon drawn, you could also justify walking around with your element gathered. In fact, the set of situations where you can walk around with your element gathered is probably larger than the set of situations where you can walk around brandishing a large axe.

[aobst128]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Also pre gather is mostly a dungeon thing. Imagine constanly having fire while walking down the street.

I feel like any context in which you could justify having your weapon drawn, you could also justify walking around with your element gathered. In fact, the set of situations where you can walk around with your element gathered is probably larger than the set of situations where you can walk around brandishing a large axe.

Fire and earth might be more troublesome to onlookers than water or air. Would anyone even notice air?

[PossibleCabbage]

I'm also not sure if you can't keep your fire gathered just kept down to the level of a candle flame balanced on your finger. I'd probably allow it.

[Kyrone]

If a summoner keeps their big ass Eidolon out to avoid the 3 actions to manifest it, I can't see why not you can't have your arm on fire.

[Xenocrat]

"Sir, you can't carry that fire around with you!"

"I'm carrying it around in case someone starts a fight with me, I'll have a better chance to kill them. Do you want to start a fight me to make me put it away?"

[aobst128]

"sir, your arm is way too wet, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop doing that"

[WWHsmackdown]

aobst128 wrote:

"sir, your arm is way too wet, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop doing that"

You seem aaawwwwwfffully sweaty, sir......you're not HIDING anything, are you?

*Water kineticist darts his eyes shiftily* (insert Jordan Peele gif)

[PossibleCabbage]

Justify always carrying around fist-sized rocks by taking "additional lore- juggling".

[Dubious Scholar]

Kyrone wrote:

If a summoner keeps their big ass Eidolon out to avoid the 3 actions to manifest it, I can't see why not you can't have your arm on fire.

This is really fun for some eidolons though. It's entirely justifiable for a Fey eidolon to look like an exotic humanoid, and a Beast eidolon an exotic pet (or even just a big dog, everyone pet the big fluffy dog).

Even air though is probably noticable to someone being watchful, earth is probably the least obvious as it might look like you're just fidgeting with some rocks in your hand. Water and fire are very clearly magic, and why are you doing that sir, are you planning to be casting something soon? Perhaps we should talk down at the guard post, hmm?

[RexAliquid]

Kekkres wrote:

RexAliquid wrote:

How often are you walking around in a dangerous situation without your element drawn? A good opening salvo softens up the enemies for your single-target strikers.

i am assuming they walk in with their element gathered, the action tax still applies however in order to do anything the follow up turn, since almost every action the class has requires an existing gather.

Then you are double-counting the action tax and making things seem worse than they really are. Try to be more consistent on which action is paying the tax.

[Raiderrpg]

If you let someone walk around with their sword drawn, they should be able to walk around with an Element drawn as well. I'm sure there'll be some "quick draw" element feat tacked on later for the other situations.

The accuracy is the real killer here, with them always being at least 1 point behind everyone else. That needs to be buffed up somehow if it's going to have the main gimmick, elemental blasting, work.

[Dilvias]

Kekkres wrote:

the problem is, past the earliest level the damage output of a kineticist using 3 or 4 action impulse routines vs a martial using strike, strike third action is so incredibly lopsided that the chance you actually save your martials more then one action over the course of a battle is pretty slim

level 11 kineticist outputs at best 4D8 or 4D10 depending on weather they using a 3 or 4 action routine (18 or 22 damage on average respectivly)
a barbarian at the same level can be putting out 2D12+14+2D6, or 34 damage on average with ONE action, about 60 whith two when you work in the decreased accuracy of the second strike

so comparing against all given hp values your impulse has saved your barbarian one action 2/3 of the time, but dropped an enemy a round early only 1 third of the time. for FOUR ACTIONS you have a reasonably good chance to save one character one action and a less reliable chance to have dropped an enemy a turn early. and sure, that sounds pretty alright right?

however, if there are one or two enemies, any character with a scaling spell dc and electric arc does this better, if there are three or four enemies, a flurry ranger does this MUCH better by just spreading their shots out to different targets (not technically aoe, but with the same end result over the two turns it takes a kineticist to use a 3 action impulse). It is only once you are hitting 5 enemies that you are actually achiving resourceless free wide damage in a way that has better...

If all you care about is damage, at level 11 a kineticist can do 2d12+2d6+7 melee or 2d8+2d6+5 with a 100’ range, with any element, as a single action. Not barbarian numbers, but respectable.

I’m more worried about there being a one true build.

[WWHsmackdown]

Dilvias wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

the problem is, past the earliest level the damage output of a kineticist using 3 or 4 action impulse routines vs a martial using strike, strike third action is so incredibly lopsided that the chance you actually save your martials more then one action over the course of a battle is pretty slim

level 11 kineticist outputs at best 4D8 or 4D10 depending on weather they using a 3 or 4 action routine (18 or 22 damage on average respectivly)
a barbarian at the same level can be putting out 2D12+14+2D6, or 34 damage on average with ONE action, about 60 whith two when you work in the decreased accuracy of the second strike

so comparing against all given hp values your impulse has saved your barbarian one action 2/3 of the time, but dropped an enemy a round early only 1 third of the time. for FOUR ACTIONS you have a reasonably good chance to save one character one action and a less reliable chance to have dropped an enemy a turn early. and sure, that sounds pretty alright right?

however, if there are one or two enemies, any character with a scaling spell dc and electric arc does this better, if there are three or four enemies, a flurry ranger does this MUCH better by just spreading their shots out to different targets (not technically aoe, but with the same end result over the two turns it takes a kineticist to use a 3 action impulse). It is only once you are hitting 5 enemies that you are actually achiving resourceless free wide damage in a way that has better...

If all you care about is damage, at level 11 a kineticist can do 2d12+2d6+7 melee or 2d8+2d6+5 with a 100’ range, with any element, as a single action. Not barbarian numbers, but respectable.

I’m more worried about there being a one true build.

I'm sorry, what options give you that?

[YuriP]

Probably a striking elemental bastard Sword + 2 elemental property runes +4 (str) + weapon specialization for melee (yet I don't know what's missing to 7, probably he is counting with +5 from stats but this isn't possible for a non-KAS).
For range it's probably is a Fusion Blast to do this much damage at such range but is a 2-action ability so I don't know, may he's counting bows has 1 handed or using crossbow and ignoring the reload?

Yet none of this damage appear to be better than any martial well equipped damage. Also we still don't know if runes works for elemental weapons. So these numbers are in a greyzone.

[Dilvias]

WWHsmackdown wrote:

Dilvias wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

the problem is, past the earliest level the damage output of a kineticist using 3 or 4 action impulse routines vs a martial using strike, strike third action is so incredibly lopsided that the chance you actually save your martials more then one action over the course of a battle is pretty slim

level 11 kineticist outputs at best 4D8 or 4D10 depending on weather they using a 3 or 4 action routine (18 or 22 damage on average respectivly)
a barbarian at the same level can be putting out 2D12+14+2D6, or 34 damage on average with ONE action, about 60 whith two when you work in the decreased accuracy of the second strike

so comparing against all given hp values your impulse has saved your barbarian one action 2/3 of the time, but dropped an enemy a round early only 1 third of the time. for FOUR ACTIONS you have a reasonably good chance to save one character one action and a less reliable chance to have dropped an enemy a turn early. and sure, that sounds pretty alright right?

however, if there are one or two enemies, any character with a scaling spell dc and electric arc does this better, if there are three or four enemies, a flurry ranger does this MUCH better by just spreading their shots out to different targets (not technically aoe, but with the same end result over the two turns it takes a kineticist to use a 3 action impulse). It is only once you are hitting 5 enemies that you are actually achiving resourceless free wide damage in a way that has better...

If all you care about is damage, at level 11 a kineticist can do 2d12+2d6+7 melee or 2d8+2d6+5 with a 100’ range, with any element, as a single action. Not barbarian numbers, but respectable.

I’m more worried about there being a one true build.

I'm sorry, what options give you that?

Elemental weapon (bastard sword or composite longbow), +4 strength, +2d6 from property runes, +2 weapon specialization, +1 from elemental wisp.

Winter’s clutch adds +11 cold damage to anyone within 20 feet, which pulls it even closer to barbarian.

[Dubious Scholar]

Composite Longbow is questionable for Elemental Weapon. Is 1+ a one-handed weapon? It only uses one hand... except for when it's being fired, after all.

[Captain Morgan]

Raiderrpg wrote:

If you let someone walk around with their sword drawn, they should be able to walk around with an Element drawn as well. I'm sure there'll be some "quick draw" element feat tacked on later for the other situations.

The accuracy is the real killer here, with them always being at least 1 point behind everyone else. That needs to be buffed up somehow if it's going to have the main gimmick, elemental blasting, work.

That seems unlikely to happen. We've had three full classes by now that don't use their key stat to hit, but (theoretically) make up for it with bonus damage. I see no reason to think they won't do the same here. IIRC the survey asks if people would rather use mental stat instead of constitution for casting, but nothing indicated Dex or Strength as a KAS.

(It is also only behind half the levels, but I still can't tell why that's ok for 5-9 and 15-19 but not 1-4 or 10-14. But Paizo seems to think that's fine.)

[YuriP]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Composite Longbow is questionable for Elemental Weapon. Is 1+ a one-handed weapon? It only uses one hand... except for when it's being fired, after all.

I don't allow bows as 1H weapon to use with Elemental Weapon or Weapon Implement they aren't full 2H weapons but also aren't full 1H. So in the end they still are a non-1H weapon and don't qualify.

Yet will be good if we have some FAQ clarification for it.

[aobst128]

YuriP wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Composite Longbow is questionable for Elemental Weapon. Is 1+ a one-handed weapon? It only uses one hand... except for when it's being fired, after all.

I don't allow bows as 1H weapon to use with Elemental Weapon or Weapon Implement they aren't full 2H weapons but also aren't full 1H. So in the end they still are a non-1H weapon and don't qualify.

Yet will be good if we have some FAQ clarification for it.

Here's how you would do it: make an elemental gauntlet for the free hand trait and pick up archer dedication and use a regular bow.

[graystone]

You can do a Thunder Sling, though it drops the die to a 1d6 and 50' but you pick up agile.

[aobst128]

graystone wrote:

You can do a Thunder Sling, though it drops the die to a 1d6 and 50' but you pick up agile.

That one's good but you might run into the issue of the ammunition being a separate one handed weapon, being darts. So blowgun ammunition is the only "ammunition" you could generate.

[graystone]

aobst128 wrote:

graystone wrote:

You can do a Thunder Sling, though it drops the die to a 1d6 and 50' but you pick up agile.

That one's good but you might run into the issue of the ammunition being a separate one handed weapon, being darts. So blowgun ammunition is the only "ammunition" you could generate.

I don't see where it differentiates between different ammos or that they are actually created and then loaded as opposed to spending the actions and it being created in the weapon as/is. It's not like there is a difference in actions or hands used.

[Dilvias]

I’m allowing elemental weapon (composite longbow) for the playtest, but earth blast does the same damage and water 2 points less, although with much lower range. Doesn’t change the fact that when built in a very specific way kineticist can do reasonable damage.

It’s why I want CON to damage, so it allows more builds to do similar damage that they can already do without jumping through all the hoops.

[aobst128]

graystone wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

graystone wrote:

You can do a Thunder Sling, though it drops the die to a 1d6 and 50' but you pick up agile.

That one's good but you might run into the issue of the ammunition being a separate one handed weapon, being darts. So blowgun ammunition is the only "ammunition" you could generate.

I don't see where it differentiates between different ammos or that they are actually created and then loaded as opposed to spending the actions and it being created in the weapon as/is. It's not like there is a difference in actions or hands used.

It's reasonable to make it work normally, the thunder sling is just weird in that the ammo is another specific weapon.

[Martialmasters]

Yeah winters clutch becomes insanely good. Up to 20 damage a round no save in a radius.

[Xenocrat]

Just standing around as a hydrokineticist does more damage than triple attack as aerokineticist

[Martialmasters]

As it should be

Actually I'm gonna be pretty sad that they will probably nerf this

[Ryuujin-sama]

Funnily enough I have seen people deride Winter's Clutch as weak damage. I feel like it is a nice level, better than Desert Shimmer, and more consistent than Crowned in Thunder's Tempest. Though I would not be against some more damage on some of the auras.

Also Con to damage on all damaging Impulses, including Auras.

[Dubious Scholar]

Desert Shimmer functions as a 20% damage reduction to your party too though by giving everyone one-way concealment (at least once you have Aura Shaping so party members ignore other things being concealed to them).

Right now it feels like water is the element that is the most purely damage-focused to a degree? Although this is partly that they have more situational things like Feet to Fins eating up space on the list.

We all know air blast is just too weak though and something needs to change there. d4 weapons don't scale enough when so much of strike damage is derived from weapon dice. You basically need d6 with a class damage boost as your bare minimum I feel.

[Kyrone]

It ends up being.

Air, horrible blast but actually good impulses, the flinging updraft and fly impulses are great.

Earth, good blast but meh early impulses, the best thing here is the overpowered 2 action wall of stone.

Fire, decent blast, also meh early impulses, horrid ignition is pretty great however.

Water, good blast, decent impulses and really good auras, get control as early as lvl 6 with wall of water (very easy to put in a way that an enemy have to stride + swim + stride to reach to you), the lvl 18 moon impulse have an amazing name but it does suck though.

[Captain Morgan]

They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread.

[Kyrone]

Captain Morgan wrote:

They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread.

Dedicated gates could have like a die size higher in their blasts, so Water/Earth d10, Fire d8 and Air d6, kinda like a Barbarian with like giant Instinct, but instead of clumsy you are being limited to a single element.

[Dubious Scholar]

That would be an interesting incentive. Then dedicated gate gets depth in one element and stronger attacks, while the others are picking and choosing the best of multiple elements of impulse instead.

[Guntermench]

Kyrone wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread.

Dedicated gates could have like a die size higher in their blasts, so Water/Earth d10, Fire d8 and Air d6, kinda like a Barbarian with like giant Instinct, but instead of clumsy you are being limited to a single element.

Earth can already get to d12s, you going to bump it up to d20s?

[Verzen]

Guntermench wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread.

Dedicated gates could have like a die size higher in their blasts, so Water/Earth d10, Fire d8 and Air d6, kinda like a Barbarian with like giant Instinct, but instead of clumsy you are being limited to a single element.

Earth can already get to d12s, you going to bump it up to d20s?

No. Just instead give it a 1 or 2 damage bump

[Lollerabe]

Yeah + 1 die size across the board would feel alot better. Elemental weapon would need some rework and a niche.

And hopefully more feats that augment your blasts