If a Perception check to find a trap were to include touch, and you were Taking 20 to do it, you would set off the trap before you could figure out that it is a trap because the Take 20 rule specifically says that it is assumed that you fail at least once and, potentially, multiple times before succeeding.
Skills have four result categories: Succeed, Succeed really well, Fail, and Fail really badly. "Really well" and "Really badly" are determined by the skill (i.e. "if you fail by 10 or more" or "if you beat the check by 5"). Perception doesn't have "really well/badly" rules.
1's don't auto-fail on skill checks. 20's don't auto-succeed. Otherwise you'd have a 5% chance of failing to notice the wall in front of your face every time you looked around, and you'd be able to jump over the moon on every 20th jump.
Given that perception only has "Succeed" and "Fail" as options, and there's no auto-fail, there is no difference in result between rolling a 1 before mod (and failing) and rolling a 32 after mod (and failing). In fact, some rogues could get the needed 33 on a 1, which means they auto-succeed. So unless you're going to say that if you search for traps and miss the DC by just 1 point you set off the symbol trap, then there's nothing to prevent you taking 20. If you are going to use that house rule, then your players should not be allowed to take 20 on perception checks, since it now violates the "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" rule.
PRD:
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.
So per RAW ONLY rogues have enough skill to detect a symbol of death trap anyway. So while you can take 20 to detect a symbol trap there is nothing in the rules that stats a 20 is a success. In fact the opposite is reinforced by saying a 1 on a skill check is not an automatic failure and a 20 is not an automatic success.
now with that taken into account i think it's safe to say that most adventurers in a magical world dont go around reading every rune they find everywhere. after all do most GM state " you enter a room on the south end is a door with runes written above it,looks at players languages known, BOb has dwarven, bob the runes read Die! Make a save and hope you role high.
Or is it more often- GM " you enter a room, on the south end is a door with runes written above it. They appear to be old and seem dwarven in nature." Bob, "i'm a dwarf i can read dwarven but im not going to read them!" GM, "why not bob?" Bob, remember i had an elf character that read those dark elf runes and went insane, my dwarf knows better than to mess with dwarven cripts so blindly. Send in the rogue first to check for traps!"
There's a thing like to do with rogues to explain magical traps. After all how does a rogue find a magical trap or disarm magical traps in the first place!? The book doesn't state how and you can grow crazy trying to put real world mechanics to it. Another poster stated rogues use mainly 3 sense but when it comes to traps and rogues i give them a sixth sense. If the player finds a magical trap it's basically like his "spidey sense" is red flagging. He can't see it but he knows it's there. As for disarming it, sometimes i lay awake at night.
One thing i find perplexing is proximity traps. The rules don't seem to take into account distance after all. a fireball trap has a perception DC of 28 with alarm as the proximity trigger. shouldn't the DC be 31 since alarm activates at 20 ft? So if it activates at 20' how does the rogue find the trap at 0' without activating the fireball!?! There should be a clarification on this, maybe under the proximity section. It would make sense to add the distance penalty and up the CR of the trap to adjust XP.
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If a Perception check to find a trap were to include touch, and you were Taking 20 to do it, you would set off the trap before you could figure out that it is a trap because the Take 20 rule specifically says that it is assumed that you fail at least once and, potentially, multiple times before succeeding.Skills have four result categories: Succeed, Succeed really well, Fail, and Fail really badly. "Really well" and "Really badly" are determined by the skill (i.e. "if you fail by 10 or more" or "if you beat the check by 5"). Perception doesn't have "really well/badly" rules.
1's don't auto-fail on skill checks. 20's don't auto-succeed. Otherwise you'd have a 5% chance of failing to notice the wall in front of your face every time you looked around, and you'd be able to jump over the moon on every 20th jump.
Given that perception only has "Succeed" and "Fail" as options, and there's no auto-fail, there is no difference in result between rolling a 1 before mod (and failing) and rolling a 32 after mod (and failing). In fact, some rogues could get the needed 33 on a 1, which means they auto-succeed. So unless you're going to say that if you search for traps and miss the DC by just 1 point you set off the symbol trap, then there's nothing to prevent you taking 20. If you are going to use that house rule, then your players should not be allowed to take 20 on perception checks, since it now violates the "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" rule.
By your logic Symbols that require the affected person to see (perceive) them are the worst tap in the gaming universe.
To see them you need to be a rogue and and he should roll a success in finding traps.
But then he has found that the symbol is a trap and he can cover it without any looking at it.
It is not important if the Symbol is made of 3 meter tall fiery letters. Following your reasoning you can see if only if you are a rogue and you roll a DC of 25+the level of the spell.
About the you can Take 20 only if "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" rule, the rule contradict itself .
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.
...Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
That "hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties" make it a good choice for the player not to use it if there is the possibility of consequences, but don't bar him for trying.
In this situation the best course probably would be to say to the player "Taking 20": "Ok, roll a dice, that is the first attempt you do taking 20. You live or die by that."
You will be more lenient than a DM saying "you are Taking 20 so you automatically fail" and game wise would be better, but by RAW the rule say "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20" and "your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task" contradicting itself.
You are assuming that not finding the trap equals "I look at the symbol."
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.Yes, I am assuming that the characters are looking around wile travelling. If they are all blinfolded and using blind fight to move around the symbol will not be their problem.
For me, searching for a trap that is activated by perceiving it and failing to perceive it as a trap mean that the character has seen it but not recognized it as a trap from a safe distance or using the right system to protect from it.
If your players check every area using a hand mirror to check for ambushes and other troubles like a SWAT team during an operation, more power to them. But they would be moving at the speed of a SWAT team.
Off-topic:The magic traps only findable by rogues was a part of trapfinding in 3.5. That is no longer a part of the trapfinding class feature. I am assuming they either forgot to take it out of the trap section or the class ability is incorrect. I am assuming the class ability is correct, but it seems we now have another rules contradiction. I don't want to derail the thread so I will see if I can find your quote in the PRD and if so I will make a rules thread and FAQ it.
I am not saying they are not looking around, but that does not mean they set the trap off. If they can see the symbol from 60 or so feet away then they can see it from 65 feet away. This makes symbols bad traps, but that does not have anything to do with the rule at hand. You as the DM can make up any fluff you want that determines how they don't set it off. All that matters right now is that perception checks by RAW don't set traps off. It may be RAI that symbol based traps are an exception, but I don't see.
About the you can Take 20 only if "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure" rule, the rule contradict itself .
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.
...
Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).
How about a different reading for "would" in there? You would take penalties, if you could do it, but you can't.
In this situation the best course probably would be to say to the player "Taking 20": "Ok, roll a dice, that is the first attempt you do taking 20. You live or die by that."
This is probably a silly question and I am not being negative toward you in asking it, but you do know you do not roll dice when Taking 10 or 20, right? You just add up all the modifiers and add either 10 or 20 to that total to see if you succeed.
You will be more lenient than a DM saying "you are Taking 20 so you automatically fail" and game wise would be better, but by RAW the rule say "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20" and "your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task" contradicting itself.
And this is why it is really up to each GM on how to run it. Like I said earlier, using the three non-physical senses on a Perception check "carries no penalties for failure" for traps other than Symbols, so they can Take 20 to spot, smell or hear that trap, assuming 20 plus all modifiers even equals or beats the DC. But even so, if a player states that they are going Take 20 on a Perception check for traps at every single door, hallway, room, or whatever, I am going to tell them no, unless he is playing that character overall in that type of extreme paranoia about everything. Or if say, the party hits three straight doors that are trapped and the player states he is going to Take 20 at every other door in the dungeon because of this, then sure he can do it, so long as he is not doing something that can trigger a trap, like touching the doorknob or poking at the lock.
In this situation the best course probably would be to say to the player "Taking 20": "Ok, roll a dice, that is the first attempt you do taking 20. You live or die by that."This is probably a silly question and I am not being negative toward you in asking it, but you do know you do not roll dice when Taking 10 or 20, right? You just add up all the modifiers and add either 10 or 20 to that total to see if you succeed.
And this is why it is really up to each GM on how to run it. Like I said earlier, using the three non-physical senses on a Perception check "carries no penalties for failure" for traps other than Symbols, so they can Take 20 to spot, smell or hear that trap, assuming 20 plus all modifiers even equals or beats the DC. But even so, if a player states that they are going Take 20 on a Perception check for traps at every single door, hallway, room, or whatever, I am going to tell them no, unless he is playing that character overall in that type of extreme paranoia about everything. Or if say, the party hits three straight doors that are trapped and the player states he is going to Take 20 at every other door in the dungeon because of this, then sure he can do it, so long as he is not doing something that can trigger a trap, like touching the doorknob or poking at the lock.
You will be more lenient than a DM saying "you are Taking 20 so you automatically fail" and game wise would be better, but by RAW the rule say "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20" and "your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task" contradicting itself.
I disagree with Rossi also about his ruling, but taking 20 assumes you roll the dice 20 times, which is why things that can have bad results are not allowed to be used with the "take 20" rule. It is also why it takes so long because it assumes you are taking 20 turns to get the best result. That is why the term roll is used.
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You are assuming that not finding the trap equals "I look at the symbol."
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.Yes, I am assuming that the characters are looking around wile travelling. If they are all blinfolded and using blind fight to move around the symbol will not be their problem.
For me, searching for a trap that is activated by perceiving it and failing to perceive it as a trap mean that the character has seen it but not recognized it as a trap from a safe distance or using the right system to protect from it.
If your players check every area using a hand mirror to check for ambushes and other troubles like a SWAT team during an operation, more power to them. But they would be moving at the speed of a SWAT team.
Off-topic:The magic traps only findable by rogues was a part of trapfinding in 3.5. That is no longer a part of the trapfinding class feature. I am assuming they either forgot to take it out of the trap section or the class ability is incorrect. I am assuming the class ability is correct, but it seems we now have another rules contradiction. I don't want to derail the thread so I will see if I can find your quote in the PRD and if so I will make a rules thread and FAQ it.I am not saying they are not looking around, but that does not mean they set the trap off. If they can see the symbol from 60 or so feet away then they can see it from 65 feet away. This makes symbols bad traps, but that does not have anything to do with the rule at hand. You as the DM can make up any fluff you want that determines how they don't set it off. All that matters right now is that perception checks by RAW don't set traps off. It may be RAI that symbol based traps are an exception, but I don't see.
That is the PRD. If you start the thread link it.
Sure, the guys can roll to see if the rune at the other side of a 65+' hallway is a magical Symbol, but they are seeing it.
If they take the time to check every rune, symbol, picture and so on that they can see at that distance they can even take 20. If that is good enough to detect it as a magical trap very well for them but they will spend a lot of time checking every rune on every wall.
If they fail in detecting the rune as a trap and go on it will be triggered as soon as someone look again in that direction.
It may be RAI that symbol based traps are an exception, but I don't see.
But they see. ;)
The symbol is triggered by seeing it. Not much to say about that. If they are in range and se it it trigger. Point.I consider reasonable that a guy searching for a trap, if he roll high enough, will detect it as a trap and avoid triggering it but by the RAW of the symbol spell even that is leniency.
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In this situation the best course probably would be to say to the player "Taking 20": "Ok, roll a dice, that is the first attempt you do taking 20. You live or die by that."
This is probably a silly question and I am not being negative toward you in asking it, but you do know you do not roll dice when Taking 10 or 20, right? You just add up all the modifiers and add either 10 or 20 to that total to see if you succeed.
The Symbol (it that is the trigger) is activated by simply looking at it.
Taking 20 say that you fail several times before getting it right.
If you are using your sight to perceive the symbol (and you are in range) you are triggering it.
So if they decide to take 20 there are 3 options:
1) you say "you can't take 20 in this situation". Perfect. You have give away that there is a symbol. So to avoid that you have to disallow taking 20 on perception to find traps.
2) they can taking 20 and get the automatically failed result (unless they can succeed with a 1)
3) you allow them to roll a dice.
By RAW of taking 20 and RAW of symbol 2) should be the "right"answer but I prefer 3.
How about a different reading for "would" in there? You would take penalties, if you could do it, but you can't.
Ok, then you can't allow players to take 20 to find traps or as son as they meet a Symbol they are informed that there is one without the need to make any skill check.
The problem is that the rule on taking 20 clash with the Symbol spell description.
In that kind of situations I consider the specific rule (the spell) superior to the generic rule (how taking 20 work and when it can be applied).
Any comment on how you would resolve the rogue not seeing the 3 meter tall letters unless he get a success on his skill check?
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In this situation the best course probably would be to say to the player "Taking 20": "Ok, roll a dice, that is the first attempt you do taking 20. You live or die by that."
This is probably a silly question and I am not being negative toward you in asking it, but you do know you do not roll dice when Taking 10 or 20, right? You just add up all the modifiers and add either 10 or 20 to that total to see if you succeed.
The Symbol (it that is the trigger) is activated by simply looking at it.
Taking 20 say that you fail several times before getting it right.
If you are using your sight to perceive the symbol (and you are in range) you are triggering it.
So if they decide to take 20 there are 3 options:
1) you say "you can't take 20 in this situation". Perfect. You have give away that there is a symbol. So to avoid that you have to disallow taking 20 on perception to find traps.
2) they can taking 20 and get the automatically failed result (unless they can succeed with a 1)
3) you allow them to roll a dice.
By RAW of taking 20 and RAW of symbol 2) should be the "right"answer but I prefer 3.
Or the DM could roll that search check hidden and go with it. I like the idea to keeping a pile of chits of paper around with d20 pre-rolls on them and draw from a pile when I have a d20 roll that needs to be totally secret, but based on the players stats/skills (note you can do this with smartphone software and laptops now, but I am old-school sometimes). In situations like this, the players would not know that this "take 20" was not really taking a 20, but a die roll. Keeps the suspense going.
Either that or the rogue starts to see the edge of the symbol, recognizes it as something possibly dangerous, and blocks the rest from sight while they figure it out (which may take time). This is after all, a character who lives in a magical world and has most likely seen a magical runes in use at one time or another, many of which trigger when you try to read them. Rogues that live long enough to worry about those kind of traps (aka at the right level for that CR), and are taking a 20 are more than likely paranoid and/or survivalists.
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The problem is the whole Symbol line of spells.
Symbol of Death
School necromancy [death]; Level cleric 8, sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal worth 5,000 gp each)
Range 0 ft.; see text
Effect one symbol
Duration see text
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of death kills one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed 150. The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected 150 hit points' worth of creatures, whichever comes first. A creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally.
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death's triggering conditions cannot be changed.
In this case, “reading” the rune means any attempt to study it, identify it, or fathom its meaning. Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch. You can't use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.
You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature's name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don't qualify.
When scribing a symbol of death, you can specify a password or phrase that prevents a creature using it from triggering the symbol's effect. Anyone using the password remains immune to that particular rune's effects so long as the creature remains within 60 feet of the rune. If the creature leaves the radius and returns later, it must use the password again.
You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as 10 creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as 25 creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes an additional 24 hours per 25 creatures. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when it is triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.
Read magic allows you to identify a symbol with a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + the symbol's spell level). Of course, if the symbol is set to be triggered by reading it, this will trigger the symbol.
A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it.
Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, but then can be triggered again as normal.
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.
Let's look the first two methods of activation:
- look at the rune: the whole bag of problems depicted above
- read the rune: I automatically start to read almost every word I see and I think that at least wizards and clerics do the same.
It is possible to train yourself not to do that but reading is a form of patter recognition, unless you are barely literate you don't read every single letter, you read the whole word as a gestalt.
So some clarification would be useful even thre.
Then
"A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it."
So it can be dispelled but removing only part of it will not disable it.
Only total destruction of the surface where it rest.
But that will activate the symbol too.
How long that activation will last? Instantaneous?
so maybe the question should be about Symbol and not taking 20.
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This line in the quoted spell description does allow the rogue to disable it without (as long as he makes his check) triggering it:
A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.
But it is left to the GM to describe.
As for the reading the rune, maybe the rogue, as part of their training, teaches themselves not to read everything seen automatically. After all, this is a magical world where one may run into symbol traps..
Direct from James Jacobs in his answer thread.
If you take 20 on a symbol trap, you get zapped. Symbols are among the toughest and most dangerous magic traps out there for a reason. It's why they skew toward high level. Of course, most symbols also have range limits, so you could search for them beyond this range limit with safety (although with the penalty to Perception for using the skill at range, of course).Hmm, here's a question. Came up in a different thread, thought I'd just ask.
Taking 20 blurb in the rules say you can take 20 on perception checks when looking for traps, because there are never any negative consequences.
However, symbol traps are set off when you look at them.
This means to my way of reading that either symbol traps are exceptions to the take 20 entry, or, that symbol traps are utterly useless, since you can never set them off while searching for traps by the take 20 rules.
Oh, also, the traps section still has some text about magical traps only being able to be spotted by trapfinding.
Instead of "squares" couldnt you just use "general area" for example?
For example, you would still take 2 minutes to search a set of double doors, even if they take up 2 squares.
Players would still need to make intelligent choices about search locations rather than just saying "we automatically take 20 to search every room we enter".
And even if they find a trap, they still need to disable or get past it somehow.
By the rules no. My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules, but he can ask the caster what that strange symbol is. The caster and/or using spellcraft or knowledge(arcana), I don't remember which, can identify it, and then the caster can try to dispel it. Stepping on the rogue's toes is not good for the rogue.
This line in the quoted spell description does allow the rogue to disable it without (as long as he makes his check) triggering it:
A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.But it is left to the GM to describe.
As for the reading the rune, maybe the rogue, as part of their training, teaches themselves not to read everything seen automatically. After all, this is a magical world where one may run into symbol traps..
and thats were i got my quote. and why some are racking there brains trying to put real world mechanics to rogues detecting magical sybol traps. does it really matter how they detect it so much as there the only ones who CAN safely?
as for taking 20 to detect traps i would allow it as the core book says you can. but remember 20 is not an auto success. and non rogues can take 20 but there unable to decipher that a symbol trap is a symbol trap. symbol traps are one of the few things that has issues. after all not finding a trap on taking 20 actually doesn't have any negative effects so there no issue. sure you might walk into a trap if dont find it but walking forward is what made you take negative effects not failing to detect the trap... sure if you found it you would have avoided it but thats about the same as saying "if i wouldn't have gotten out of bed today i wouldn't have gotten a ticket for speeding. speeding got you the ticket not getting out of bed."
now the problem at hand thats bringing the issues. taking 20 to detect a symbol trap. well this can be resolved fairly easy.
PRD-
" A rogue (ONLY) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death...."
"Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (WHEN ATTEMPTING TO FIND TRAPS).
RAW-
ONLY rogues can take 20 to detect a magical symbol of death!
problem solved.
Now a non rogue could take 20 to find symbols but not for the intent of detecting it as a trap. The DC would depend on range and in a symbol of death case a high enough role (a success)if if within 60 feet would actually be a failure as it would make you see the symbol and you Could die! lol. If the non rogue was out of the 60 feet range of the symbol and noticed it he would simply see a symbol on the wall far away.
I kind of like the way this plays out. it's got lots of devious uses. for non rogue players that constantly take 20 it could cause them to regret it! It also gives players a false sense of security..
example: Tim the mage takes 20 to detect traps. Tim " i have a 35 perception check! That should find any trap at our level!" GM, "Tim you scan the room intently and it appears there are no traps in the area, to the far wall is a single rune above a door". Tim "ok i go and see what it says". GM "You head across the floor toward the rune and it begins to glow and you feel a throbbing pain in your chest". Tim " THATS CRAP! WE SHOULD NOT BE FACING TRAPS WITH SUCH A HIGH DC!" GM " tim the trap in question does not have a DC over 35 you simply can't detect it it not being a rogue". Tim roles a 7 fortitude.. GM "btw the pain in your chest grows stronger but quickly subsides as Tim the wizard falls dead on the floor". Tim "i hate you..." BoB "And you complained when i stole that resurrect scroll off those priests, your right tim i should give it back to them! lol".
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By the rules no. My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules, but he can ask the caster what that strange symbol is. The caster and/or using spellcraft or knowledge(arcana), I don't remember which, can identify it, and then the caster can try to dispel it. Stepping on the rogue's toes is not good for the rogue.Instead of "squares" couldnt you just use "general area" for example?
For example, you would still take 2 minutes to search a set of double doors, even if they take up 2 squares.
Players would still need to make intelligent choices about search locations rather than just saying "we automatically take 20 to search every room we enter".
And even if they find a trap, they still need to disable or get past it somehow.
PDR of that rule?
From the Symbols spell only a rogue can recognize the symbol as a trap and the difficulty is 25+spell level and distance modifier. And that work for all the magical traps. Maybe it has been changed, but if he make the roll he has recognized it as a trap, if not he think it is some "normal" writing.If the rogue make the roll he recognize it as a trap and has an idea on how it work, so he can deactivate it (covering the Symbol, not looking at it, not touching it and so on).
In the spell it is not specified what he do to deactivate it, only some of the things that work or don't work. I would rule, for symbols, that he know that he need to cover it (it is in the description of the spell).
He can have problems doing that for a safe distance it the symbol is sight activated, but throwing jars of paints or even overripe tomatoes should work.
In this situation failing the disable device skill mean that he has made a step too far while roving the tomatoes and entered the trigger radius or done some other error.
Wow,
Dev says 'Take 20 on finding traps and you set off a symbol trap' and people just completely ignore it and continue discussing how the GM is responsible for the fluff of how he detects and neutralizes it without setting it off. Incredible...
PRD-
" A rogue (ONLY) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death....""Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (WHEN ATTEMPTING TO FIND TRAPS).
RAW-
ONLY rogues can take 20 to detect a magical symbol of death!problem solved.
Rogue : I take 20 to look for traps in this 30x30 room.
GM : Make a saving throws, there is a Symbol of Death on the walls, and you just set it off by taking 20.
Rogue : @*#$*#$&
Please see quote above by James, Symbols will go off if you take 20 to look for them, unless you are beyond their range.
Searching for traps has no penalty for failure. It would be disarming them that they would not be able to take 20.
Triggering them is possible while searching, if during that search they meet the criteria for triggering the trap.
The penalty for searching for trap is not noticing the trap and not giving you a chance to disarm it meaning you spring the trap. So I'd say no on taking 20 to search for traps.
My phrase to me seem clear enough, what is the part about wick you don't agree?Let's check it step by step:
-So if you take 20 perceiving one of the different Symbols, taking 20 work as you had rolled all numbers from all numbers from 1 to 20.
-it is set to activate by looking at it Symbols can be set to work in different ways, so this is a needed condition.
-and you aren't outside the 60' range, if you are outside the 60' range the Symbol is not triggered
-unless you can get to 25+spell level and range modifier with a roll of 1 you fail automatically taking 20. a roll of 1 when taking a skill check isn't an automatic failure, so if you can beat the trap DC with a roll of 1 you get to avoid it.
I disagree with your premise because it is such that there is no point in giving a symbol a DC to identify it as a trap because any attempt to identify it will trigger it.
Add on:
maybe I have found what you were missing.
You read my citation of Wraith post but you didn't read the post he was citing. The whole quote is:
Basing your argument on some one else who is wrong does not make you not wrong.
PRD-
" A rogue (ONLY) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death....""Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (WHEN ATTEMPTING TO FIND TRAPS).
RAW-
ONLY rogues can take 20 to detect a magical symbol of death!problem solved.
Rogue : I take 20 to look for traps in this 30x30 room.
GM : Make a saving throws, there is a Symbol of Death on the walls, and you just set it off by taking 20.
Rogue : @*#$*#$&
Please see quote above by James, Symbols will go off if you take 20 to look for them, unless you are beyond their range.
And unless you do not fail on a roll of 1.
By the rules no. My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules, but he can ask the caster what that strange symbol is. The caster and/or using spellcraft or knowledge(arcana), I don't remember which, can identify it, and then the caster can try to dispel it. Stepping on the rogue's toes is not good for the rogue.Instead of "squares" couldnt you just use "general area" for example?
For example, you would still take 2 minutes to search a set of double doors, even if they take up 2 squares.
Players would still need to make intelligent choices about search locations rather than just saying "we automatically take 20 to search every room we enter".
And even if they find a trap, they still need to disable or get past it somehow.
PDR of that rule?
From the Symbols spell only a rogue can recognize the symbol as a trap and the difficulty is 25+spell level and distance modifier. And that work for all the magical traps. Maybe it has been changed, but if he make the roll he has recognized it as a trap, if not he think it is some "normal" writing.If the rogue make the roll he recognize it as a trap and has an idea on how it work, so he can deactivate it (covering the Symbol, not looking at it, not touching it and so on).
In the spell it is not specified what he do to deactivate it, only some of the things that work or don't work. I would rule, for symbols, that he know that he need to cover it (it is in the description of the spell).
He can have problems doing that for a safe distance it the symbol is sight activated, but throwing jars of paints or even overripe tomatoes should work.In this situation failing the disable device skill mean that he has made a step too far while roving the tomatoes and entered the trigger radius or done some other error.
I already said he the does not know it is a trap, but that does not mean the symbol can not be identified as a threat.
After the correct spellcraft check is made.PC:That thing will might kills us.
PC(Caster):Dispel Magic.
Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can't trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune)Read magic allows you to identify a symbol with a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + the symbol's spell level). Of course, if the symbol is set to be triggered by reading it, this will trigger the symbol.
A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it.
Ridiculous. That mean anyone performing a search check at all in a room with a symbol in it, even to look for traps, sets off the trap if the don't meet the detection DC. Patently ridiculous. You've just thrown a wrench in the system by creating a unique, against-the-rules case for a baseless fluff reason.
Wow,
Dev says 'Take 20 on finding traps and you set off a symbol trap' and people just completely ignore it and continue discussing how the GM is responsible for the fluff of how he detects and neutralizes it without setting it off. Incredible...
He also said the perception check itself is not what sets the trap off. It is the fact that you can clearly see it. In other words once you get to within 60 feet you are out of luck.
Failing a perception check DOESN'T have immediate negative effects... other than perhaps the false impression that there's no trap to be aware of when there is.That said, when a rule says "looking at something makes it hurt you" or the like, it doesn't matter if you make or fail a perception check. A symbol spell, when it's set up correctly, doesn't need a perception check to notice at all. In other words... perceiving the symbol is automatic, but noticing it's a trap before it activates is not.
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PRD-
" A rogue (ONLY) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death...."...
YOu keep SAYING this but it is not true.
The Symbol spell description is as much RAW as the piece you cited and it say:
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.
Generally, when rules conflict this way the specific rule (the Symboll spell description) supersede the generic rule.
Note that the piece you cited say:
"Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true. "
so the rule itself recognize that it can be superseded by more specific rules.
Unrelated:
someone know what tag we should use for underline as [u] don't work.
Unrelated:
someone know what tag we should use for underline as [u] don't work.
There is no underline tag here. I just use bold for everything I am trying to draw attention to.
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My phrase to me seem clear enough, what is the part about wick you don't agree?Let's check it step by step:
-So if you take 20 perceiving one of the different Symbols, taking 20 work as you had rolled all numbers from all numbers from 1 to 20.
-it is set to activate by looking at it Symbols can be set to work in different ways, so this is a needed condition.
-and you aren't outside the 60' range, if you are outside the 60' range the Symbol is not triggered
-unless you can get to 25+spell level and range modifier with a roll of 1 you fail automatically taking 20. a roll of 1 when taking a skill check isn't an automatic failure, so if you can beat the trap DC with a roll of 1 you get to avoid it.
I disagree with your premise because it is such that there is no point in giving a symbol a DC to identify it as a trap because any attempt to identify it will trigger it.
Add on:
maybe I have found what you were missing.
You read my citation of Wraith post but you didn't read the post he was citing. The whole quote is:
Basing your argument on some one else who is wrong does not make you not wrong.
"Roll eyes"
You have ways to detect a Symbol, even one set to trigger on seeing it, if you take the right precautions.On the other hand if you blunder in a room with a symbol activated on seeing it you are pretty much hosed.
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By the rules no. My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules, but he can ask the caster what that strange symbol is. The caster and/or using spellcraft or knowledge(arcana), I don't remember which, can identify it, and then the caster can try to dispel it. Stepping on the rogue's toes is not good for the rogue.Instead of "squares" couldnt you just use "general area" for example?
For example, you would still take 2 minutes to search a set of double doors, even if they take up 2 squares.
Players would still need to make intelligent choices about search locations rather than just saying "we automatically take 20 to search every room we enter".
And even if they find a trap, they still need to disable or get past it somehow.
PDR of that rule?
I already said he the does not know it is a trap, but that does not mean the symbol can not be identified as a threat.
After the correct spellcraft check is made.
PC:That thing will might kills us.
PC(Caster):Dispel Magic.
It seem you have misread the question.
You say: "My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules"
The question is "If the rouge has rolled his perception high enough to detect it is a trap why you say that he didn't know it is a trap? Where in the PRD you have found that rule?".
If he hasn't rolled high enough he can say "there is a funny symbol there." point finger
But in most situations there can be several "funny symbols" in a room.
Where I work (a building from the XIV century) there are family arms and crests in multiple rooms. Originally they were presents in every room, together with complex painted frames around them.
Every one of those pictures can contain a symbol or mean nothing more than "this is the residence of the XX family".
Sure, at that point the wizard can step up and try to detect if it is dangerous with magic but that is not stepping on the rogue toes. It is working togheter to overcome a problem.
You have ways to detect a Symbol, even one set to trigger on seeing it, if you take the right precautions.
On the other hand if you blunder in a room with a symbol activated on seeing it you are pretty much hosed.
I don't remotely care about your fluff interpretation of system workings. Fluff isn't the rules.
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I don't remotely care about your fluff interpretation of system workings. Fluff isn't the rules.
You have ways to detect a Symbol, even one set to trigger on seeing it, if you take the right precautions.
On the other hand if you blunder in a room with a symbol activated on seeing it you are pretty much hosed.
So for you the rules on how the spell work are fluff?
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune
There is no underline tag here. I just use bold for everything I am trying to draw attention to.
Sometime underline work better.
It seem you have misread the question.
You say: "My main issue is that if the rogue spots the symbol from 65 feet out he has not detected it as a trap by the rules"
The question is "If the rouge has rolled his perception high enough to detect it is a trap why you say that he didn't know it is a trap? Where in the PRD you have found that rule?".If he hasn't rolled high enough he can say "there is a funny symbol there." point finger
But in most situations there can be several "funny symbols" in a room.
Where I work (a building from the XIV century) there are family arms and crests in multiple rooms. Originally they were presents in every room, together with complex painted frames around them.
Every one of those pictures can contain a symbol or mean nothing more than "this is the residence of the XX family".Sure, at that point the wizard can step up and try to detect if it is dangerous with magic but that is not stepping on the rogue toes. It is working togheter to overcome a problem.
I got an old 3.5 rule that forced you to be within 10ft of an area to search mixed in with my pathfinder rules so I guess I could detect the trap farther out, but with a penalty.
He would more than likely still have to go up to the trap to disarm it so he is still back to depending on the casters again. I don't see a rule that says you have to be up on the trap, but that makes more sense than doing so from across the room. I will most likely allow the disarm from a distance in my games.
So for you the rules on how the spell work are fluff?As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune
And yet, as has been noted, it has a Perception DC for finding it as a trap.
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So for you the rules on how the spell work are fluff?As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune
And yet, as has been noted, it has a Perception DC for finding it as a trap.
And jet, as it was said again and again, you can perceive it as a trap from outside the range of activation if it is activated by seeing it.
If it is not possible to detect it from a safe distance but your players move with a rogue ahead of the main group and he is constantly searching for trap (and so slowing down the group) he has a chance to detect it in time to avoid activating it.
So, it is possible, but very hard, to avoid one if you take your precautions.
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So for you the rules on how the spell work are fluff?As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune
And yet, as has been noted, it has a Perception DC for finding it as a trap.
And jet, as it was said again and again, you can perceive it as a trap from outside the range of activation if it is activated by seeing it.
If it is not possible to detect it from a safe distance but your players move with a rogue ahead of the main group and he is constantly searching for trap (and so slowing down the group) he has a chance to detect it in time to avoid activating it.
So, it is possible, but very hard, to avoid one if you take your precautions.
perception != sight only. Assuming that it is, is at best, a house rule. A rogue has, as part of their class abilities, senses so finely tuned as to have a chance to detect a symbol without looking at it, even when within 10' of said symbol. This is RAW.
Now, taking a 20 assumes that you will roll at least a single 1 before you get your 20. In the case of detecting symbols with the trigger of looking at them, a "1" can fail (and thus you would not recognize it as a trap before you set it off.) But beating the detection DC for the spell will, per RAW detect it as a trap before setting it off, and offer the rogue the possibility of disabling it. How is left vague so that the GM/players can have fun with their imagination on describing how it was done.
Symbol spells are nasty with out house ruling that the rogue has no chance to detecting it before it goes off.
How does a 1 set it off? If you detect it, even if you realize it is a symbol, you have detected it and therefore trigger it - 1 or 20. The argument being used makes a symbol the ultimate trap because you can never not trigger it unless you just walk through a room blind.
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So for you the rules on how the spell work are fluff?As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune
And yet, as has been noted, it has a Perception DC for finding it as a trap.
And jet, as it was said again and again, you can perceive it as a trap from outside the range of activation if it is activated by seeing it.
If it is not possible to detect it from a safe distance but your players move with a rogue ahead of the main group and he is constantly searching for trap (and so slowing down the group) he has a chance to detect it in time to avoid activating it.
So, it is possible, but very hard, to avoid one if you take your precautions.
perception != sight only. Assuming that it is, is at best, a house rule. A rogue has, as part of their class abilities, senses so finely tuned as to have a chance to detect a symbol without looking at it, even when within 10' of said symbol. This is RAW.Now, taking a 20 assumes that you will roll at least a single 1 before you get your 20. In the case of detecting symbols with the trigger of looking at them, a "1" can fail (and thus you would not recognize it as a trap before you set it off.) But beating the detection DC for the spell will, per RAW detect it as a trap before setting it off, and offer the rogue the possibility of disabling it. How is left vague so that the GM/players can have fun with their imagination on describing how it was done.
Symbol spells are nasty with out house ruling that the rogue has no chance to detecting it before it goes off.
What house ruling? Have you read all the piece you quoted? Or it is my English so bad that it is incomprehensible?
To repeat it again and expand with was said before in other posts:
1) you can detect a symbol from outside its activation range if you are searching from traps and your perception is high enough;
2) I assume that the characters are going around looking for ambushes and other possible trouble. Specially trained characters (blind fight) could go around using only other senses but that is not the norm.
3) by this "Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action" I consider searching for traps an active use of the skill unless someone can show differently. So to notice a symbol before it is triggered you must be actively searching for traps.
4) if the whole party is bunched together they will perceive a new ambient at the same time. If they are looking around (see point 2) they will see the symbol before the rogue can warn them.
5) if the rogue is not searching for traps (point 3) his fine tuned sensed do nothing useful.
6) if the rogue is some distance ahead of the group and always scan a room for traps before they rest of the group is allowed to approach it he has a chance to detect the symbol without triggerring it.
Clearer now?
3) by this "Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action" I consider searching for traps an active use of the skill unless someone can show differently. So to notice a symbol before it is triggered you must be actively searching for traps.
What about the rogue's "trap spotter" ability? If he never looks for the symbol and it is set to trigger by reading it, can he detect the rune by being within 10 feet? Will he potentially set it off?
So...if you say that you want to take 20 to search a room, it takes 2 minutes by default right?
How is this modified for how big the area you want to search is?
It is 2 minutes per square not per room.
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3) by this "Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action" I consider searching for traps an active use of the skill unless someone can show differently. So to notice a symbol before it is triggered you must be actively searching for traps.
What about the rogue's "trap spotter" ability? If he never looks for the symbol and it is set to trigger by reading it, can he detect the rune by being within 10 feet? Will he potentially set it off?
Seeing is not reading. That is a different trigger.
While it is not clearly defined in the spell I would follow the description of Sepia Snake sigil to define what is reading:
Simply seeing the enspelled text is not sufficient to trigger the spell; the subject must deliberately read it.
So, as long as the guy searching for traps is not purposefully reading it to discern is meaning but instead searching for traps (checking the material for paint he know is used in magical traps, listening to the so slight hum and so on)he should be perfectly safe.
What about strong suspicion? I'll go by in a hallway or whatever, but that door in the dungeon is going to get a take 20. Doors, desks, altars, secret stashes, etc are all automatically suspicious. Do you let your players work off reasonable suspicion, or are they just screwed if they don't *know* it's there?
What is the problem? They get a perception check, just not a take 20. Since they are suspicious but not knowing, they have no way to discern failure so why should they keep trying (which is what take 20 presumes)? This is the same reason I prefer perception checks to be hidden, not rolled by players. They have to react to the information they have, not what they can deduce from dice rolls or metagamy considerations of where there should be traps.
Of course the dark altar with the golden statue on it is going to be suspicious. That is why the rogue will search for traps first. He gets one roll and that is his knowledge of the situation. He doesn't know how well he searched (unless he found something, in which case he searched well enough), so the roll constitutes what he thinks he found, not what there really is. It just reeks of metagame to still be suspicious just because you saw a low roll.
Bottom line: I think take 20 should be banned for any skill that does not have some form of feedback about failure. I also think this rule makes the whole take 20 business a whole lot less ambiguous. Obvious take 20 candidates are thus: craft, disable device for opening locks, jump to get on a high ledge (no falling danger), disguise (if using a mirror/friends), escape artist...
3) by this "Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action" I consider searching for traps an active use of the skill unless someone can show differently. So to notice a symbol before it is triggered you must be actively searching for traps.
What about the rogue's "trap spotter" ability? If he never looks for the symbol and it is set to trigger by reading it, can he detect the rune by being within 10 feet? Will he potentially set it off?Seeing is not reading. That is a different trigger.
While it is not clearly defined in the spell I would follow the description of Sepia Snake sigil to define what is reading:
Simply seeing the enspelled text is not sufficient to trigger the spell; the subject must deliberately read it.So, as long as the guy searching for traps is not purposefully reading it to discern is meaning but instead searching for traps (checking the material for paint he know is used in magical traps, listening to the so slight hum and so on)he should be perfectly safe.
You said that you must actively search for traps to find a symbol. Clearly that isn't necessary. In addition, if you don't have to use only sight to search for the rune, then why is there such a debate going on whether or not the rogue would be able to search for the trap by taking 20? There is no reason why the Rogue can't Take 20 to search for traps. Note that a proximity trap may end up being set off (and a symbol can easily be a proximity trap) doesn't change this. If the rogue needs to be within 60 feet and he is searching a wall that is 65 feet away, he can take the -6 to his Perception roll. Once he gets closer, the act of searching is not what sets off the trap. It's the distance from the trap. That's where Trap Sense comes in. The bonus on Reflex saves and AC should help with many traps that he doesn't find. It won't help much with symbols, but it will with many others.
Keep in mind that the symbols are very clearly magic runes of some sort. They glow and are visible out to 60 feet. It's the determining them as a trap that is the issue. If the rogue can do that at a safe enough distance, then he can Take 20. If he gets too close, then he sets off the trap. Perception doesn't come into play.
Perception rolls shouldn't be dependent on player knowledge of how to check for traps. It should really just be a simple roll assuming that the rogue knows how to do his job. By allowing the rogue to Take 20 on this, you are assuming that the rogue knows how to search without setting off traps. He knows that you don't search by jumping on each square or pushing on every brick like the wall is a Jenga puzzle. He knows that you have to put some thought into the search. It's why it takes as long as it does already.
This, on the other hand, I'm having a hard time with. Making a PC search every 5' square is very time consuming and a major slowdown on the game
I don't make a check for every square even it the character is searching every square. I make one check, unless there is more than one trap in all the squares. Only the roll for the square where a trap is, is important. Also, even if there isn't traps, I roll a die, just to make the player have doubt.
I do rolls for any doors and for the entire floor within reason. I have never followed the "every square" rule either
PRD-
" A rogue (ONLY) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death...."...
YOu keep SAYING this but it is not true.The Symbol spell description is as much RAW as the piece you cited and it say:
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Perception skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.Generally, when rules conflict this way the specific rule (the Symboll spell description) supersede the generic rule.
Note that the piece you cited say:
"Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true. "
so the rule itself recognize that it can be superseded by more specific rules.Unrelated:
someone know what tag we should use for underline as [u] don't work.
Thanks diego this saves me the trouble of wrighting up a rebuttal.
the one problem i have with setting off the trap on a 1 if under the DC is that implying the PC even noticed the rune in the first place. For instance, an Oracle with the clouded vision curse can only see out to 30ft, but if he roles a 1 on a perception he somehow set of the symbol!? i dont see how any character is any different. Unless they failed to detect the trap but the DC check was high enough to see the symbol. very possible if you take 20 as the range would be 1-20 and everything in between.
secondly symbol of death explicitly says that rogues ONLY can detect it as a trap AND that the DC is 33. It doesn't say the DC is 33+distance. But, shouldn't the DC for a symbol trap be 39 since you need +6 to have a safe distance to detect it? I can understand WHY it would be 39 as it lists +1 dc per 10' under perception, but why doesn't symbol of death, or ANY ranged magical trap take this into account?!
Third not allowing rogues to disarm a symbol of death unless they trigger it is just completely retarded and against the rules of the game.
PRD- under disable device
"The spells fire trap, glyph of warding, SYMBOL, and teleportation circle also create traps that a rogue can disarm with a successful Disable Device check. Spike growth and spike stones, however, create magic hazards against which Disable Device checks do not succeed. See the individual spell descriptions for details."
The PRD explicitly states that a rogue can disarm a symbol of death trap as the spell does not explicitly state other wise. This implies that the rogue can also do this at a distance or else he wouldn't be able to disarm it safely.Which is the WHOLE point of disarming a trap- so it doesn't hurt you!
Though this hurts my brain trying to figure out how this is possible it really doesn't matter. the rules simply state the rogue can- so he can!