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Yeah I am putting Burn on the table, someone had to.
I like the impulses, their powers are good for being at will options, but we really could use a resource mechanic to give them a little more spice like an amp, be it focus points, burn, oracle like curse or whatever.
Would you be happy with a feat that gave you the drained condition for an Amp-like power-up to your blast?
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I would like to feel the burn as well.
It feels like the reason that the Kineticist is a con class is that having an inner gate stresses your body since you're not supposed to have elemental energy running through your body like that, which is fair. But I want to leverage "I am doing resistance training with every atom of my body throughout the day" into ways other than "HP and class DC".
I know some people didn't like Burn, but at least let me buy into it with feats. Pain for power is fun for some people.
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Burn was a plight that is better left extinguished
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I understand not including burn as a core mechanic when it was so contentious, but I was definitely a fan in 1e.
I’d love if there was a way to include it as an opt-in, either through feats or even a class archetype.
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I hated burn-as-it-was but I like the idea of risk-reward systems conceptually. Having it in the playtest would've reinforced the Con key stat some, at least.
Would you be happy with a feat that gave you the drained condition for an Amp-like power-up to your blast?
I would actually, even something small like a Strain Mind ability from psychic, but you lose hit points instead on losing your element in overflow would do.
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I love power-at-a-price but I feel like enough people utterly despise it that it shouldn't be as built-in as it is for the Oracle. I also like that there isn't much resource management in the class centred around being the outflow valve of a plane of raw unrestrained power.
It'd be nice to have something conceptually similar to Strain Mind as an opt-in feat to represent ripping the safety off and letting the power flow. Perhaps even a Class Archetype, as I notice that all the concept-defining feats have avoided Level 2 like something's supposed to slot in there.
I love power-at-a-price but I feel like enough people utterly despise it that it shouldn't be as built-in as it is for the Oracle. I also like that there isn't much resource management in the class centred around being the outflow valve of a plane of raw unrestrained power.
It'd be nice to have something conceptually similar to Strain Mind as an opt-in feat to represent ripping the safety off and letting the power flow. Perhaps even a Class Archetype, as I notice that all the concept-defining feats have avoided Level 2 like something's supposed to slot in there.
This. I would prefer Burn be optional rather than consuming some of my default power budget unless it's going to be a big deal. And I was kinda mid on 1e Burn really.
I can't express how happy I was to read over the class and see NO burn! Like snoopy 'happy dance' happy. I can see myself playing this class unlike the old PF1 version where I had to punch myself 1/2 to death every morning to my overflow.
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This playtest is the first I've seen people talk about burn being weird or confusing... I don't get that, it seems very straightforward to me, more-so than vancian casting.
I really think we need something like burn. It was such a good way to show the strain on the body the kineticist went through, and I want that flavor back in a mechanical way. And there really is no way to show it in a mechanical nature without some self damage of some form (damage, unhealable damage, drained, or something else similar).
I mean if that what you like, you can always just randomly stab yourself with a dagger for the same effect. ;)
Meanwhile, I think that the lack of burn makes me incredibly sad and unlikely to play it.
I liked that I could play a class where I could play normal or sacrifice HP to become stronger.
That's the thing though: you really COULDN'T play a PF1 kineticist without maxing out your overflow at least not very well: underwhelming soul was just sad. :(
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I'll throw my hat into the side of "I'm happy with Burn not being here".
HAVING SAID THAT: I feel like there's not enough either mechanically or flavor-wise in this playtest to justify CON being the key ability score, which is something that Burn did in 1e. I don't know that bringing Burn back is the right solution, but in this newer 2e system, building a character that is -1 or -2 behind in being able to hit and damage things so that I can invest in my key ability, and not really get anything in exchange feels very odd, when that could be a very important difference in this system.
I suppose what you get in exchange is more HP, higher Fortitude, and specifically for a key ability, a class DC bump, but that's.....it? One could argue that the spellcasters are perfectly happy with getting a spell DC bump and it's very helpful, but they also get some skill bumps too. Kineticists do not. Is being tankier supposed to be enough of a bonus for that? I'm not sure based on the feats I'm seeing.
Completely off topic: I'm twitching every time I say "Burn" from still being traumatized by the previous season of Star Trek: Discovery. For that alone please stop making me talk about it, lol. :P
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I'd like to see support for Burn as well. The OG Kineticist's mechanical concept was really cool, and I'm eager to see it make a return, in whatever form it needs to (preferably with some optional build material for this class). There are stories I'd like to tell with it, that I've considered in the intervening time that's passed since earlier discussions. That said, really excited by the class I'm seeing here. Going to try to playtest it next session I GM. Looking forward to good times with this thing!
I'd like to see support for Burn as well.
I'm all for having an option for people that like beating themselves up just not for it baked into the class: I've seen what happens when they do that and then give you an option to remove it and it wasn't good.
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I don't think anybody is saying "Make Burn a mandatory part of the class".
People generally want-
- More flavor text that explains why Constitution is key to what you do.
- Let me spend feats on the something that lets me to open the (internal) floodgates at the expense of some kind of pain mechanic, so long as it's powerful enough to justify the risk and the feat slot.
Since I would absolutely prefer to spend feats on the ability to hurt myself for power than like Voice of Elements or Command Elemental.
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Old burn was fraught. I think burn as a sort of replacement for focus points wouldn't be too bad here, though.
Others have mentioned drained, and I think the option to take on drained 1 when you use an overflow ability instead of expending your element (then remove 1 point of drained with 10 minutes of downtime) would work. That way you really just get an action economy boost by taking on burn, it's optional and means you have to "reload" more often if you don't want to reduce your hp pool until the next time you can refocus.
Folks who want to push themselves to the edge can do back to back overflow abilities, but could run into trouble if they can't take time to rest. Folks who don't like using hp as a resource don't need to, but it becomes almost risk-free if you use it once in a fight where you know you'll have time to rest afterwards.
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Old burn was fraught. I think burn as a sort of replacement for focus points wouldn't be too bad here, though.
I think the Psychics Strain Mind fits the bill as a template. Use a free action that allows you to use an Impulse without gathering the element first even if you have another element gathered. Basically you force out the element without preparation and the result is 2x your level in damage.
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Yeah, I miss burn it was a fun part of the old class fantasy and the players at my table who got into kineticist really enjoyed it.
It doesn't have to take the same form in PF2, but I definitely feel it's missing. Especially in a book called Rage of Elements, I'm definitely seeing the Element in the class but I'm missing the rage.
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I'm missing the rage.
It's the rage from people missing the Burn. ;)
The way I see it adding in burn doesn't hurt people who don't want to use it. But makes it impossible for people who do. Similarly making it an optional thing is only good if it is properly supported, which given how thing have been there is a 90% chance that it will have little to no support.
It sure COULD hurt those that don't like it depending how it's added: PF1 is a good example of that. It's like me saying 'it doesn't hurt to remove Burn' if it had started out that way and bemoaning that even if there was an option to play without it, it might not be supported well. It cuts both ways.
great that people who don't like burn to have their thing. But I personally feel its also bad that people do enjoy have no way to use it.
Yep, had to live through PF1's Burn suck so I understand. At least this time I'm on the other side of the fence.
And before anyone brings up Oracle's curse or Psychic's 2x level in damage. Those are not the same thing. Oracle is a 3 stage custom effect that is severely punishing and has no granularity. Psychic has more granularity but its also a nothing burger since you can literally just heal the damage during the next break. Burn was a resource that was granular (your level in damage) and punishing (cannot be healed for a day): Its what made the con focus so good because more con meant you could take more burn.
Oh, I LOATHE the oracles curse and if I play an oracle, I NEVER EVER cast a Revelation Spell or take an oracle feat: it's my 'use every feat for archetype feats' class to get usable focus spells and more spells. Now Psychic sounds like it's pretty much like Burn. It's a limit in an encounter: if that's not enough then it might be too much for an optional feat.
But is much easier to remove burn then it is to add it in.
Agree to disagree: it all depends how intertwined it is into the class. If it's integral to the class working then sure it wouldn't work: if it's truly removable without hurting the class than I don't see why it doesn't work either way.
While I agree that the PF1 implementation might have not been the best. It seems extreme to outright remove the mechanic without even attempting to create a better version.
Gunslingers don't have grit, alchemists don't have discoveries, magus doesn't have an arcane pool, summoners don't have an innate ability to summon like healing font, oracles can't pick curses separately from mysteries, witches only get 1 reusable hex... Lots of things haven't made it to PF2. Heck, even real elemental damage didn't make it into the class.
EDIT: maybe they can make a class archetype to force Burn into the class.
Meanwhile, all the people who were waiting on the kineticist exactly because they liked that mechanic are screwed with no chance of ever getting it if not even Kineticist (the class who created it) doesn't have it.
Yep, that's how I felt through PF1's run: screwed because of one one mechanics of the class. It sucks, I get it. At least you can't see how happy I am.