Can't get my head around this niche interaction. Amped Phase Bolt makes the enemy flat-footed against the attack and the order of actions you do with a spellstrike is Cast a spell -> Make an attack roll -> resolve both. If both are resolved at the same time I see 3 possible scenarios.
It is flatfooted against both attacks (the spell is imbued in the strike and both are resolved at the same time and with the same roll, so they count as the same attack)
It is only flatfooted against the Phase Bolt damage (possibly causing you to hit one but not the other)
It affects neither of them (since you need the result of the strike to get the result of the spell).
Personally, I think RAW it is the second one, but I also think it is the most weird of the 3. Any idea about what is going on here?
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I'd say it is something more like two but not quite. The target is not flat-footed against the Strike and you use the result (critical failure, failure, success, critical success; not the die roll total). When resolving the spell, the target would be flat-footed against the phase bolt. While this won't change the degree of success, it may trigger additional damage or even special abilities that either you or the target have.
I'd say it is something more like two but not quite. The target is not flat-footed against the Strike and you use the result (critical failure, failure, success, critical success; not the die roll total). When resolving the spell, the target would be flat-footed against the phase bolt. While this won't change the degree of success, it may trigger additional damage or even special abilities that either you or the target have.
Since it says attack roll result and not just attack roll I think you're right, thanks.
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Don't affect at all:
Ancillary Effects: Your spell still has any non-targeted effects that might affect creatures other than the target, as well as any ongoing effects starting from the moment you hit with the Strike. For example, acid splash would still deal its splash damage to creatures other than the target and tanglefoot's circumstance penalty would last for its normal duration. The spell takes effect after the Strike deals damage; if the Strike has other special effects, the GM determines whether they happen before or after the spell.
I feel this sheds new light on the bonus to hit with Shocking Grasp against metal armor : it does not apply.
Can't get my head around this niche interaction. Amped Phase Bolt makes the enemy flat-footed against the attack and the order of actions you do with a spellstrike is Cast a spell -> Make an attack roll -> resolve both. If both are resolved at the same time I see 3 possible scenarios.
It is flatfooted against both attacks (the spell is imbued in the strike and both are resolved at the same time and with the same roll, so they count as the same attack)
It is only flatfooted against the Phase Bolt damage (possibly causing you to hit one but not the other)
It affects neither of them (since you need the result of the strike to get the result of the spell).Personally, I think RAW it is the second one, but I also think it is the most weird of the 3. Any idea about what is going on here?
It's 2. Both actions are completely separated, you can hit with the Strike and miss with the spell and vice versa.
The only thing is that you use the attack roll result (which is a number) to determine the effect of the Strike and the spell. As Flat Footed doesn't affect your attack roll result but the AC you need to Strike, the spell can hit while the attack doesn't.Still, expect a lot of table variation on that, as this is pretty illogical.
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Phase Bolt Amp:
Your bolt leaves phase completely, becoming invisible and intangible until it’s already embedded in the target giving the impression it simply teleported itself into place. The target is flat-footed against the attack. Additionally, the bolt ignores an amount of Hardness or resistance to piercing damage equal to half the spell’s level. On a critical success, the target can’t be affected by teleportation effects until the start of your next turn.
Spellstrike:
You channel a spell into a punch or sword thrust to deliver a combined attack. You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell don't occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead. Make a melee Strike with a weapon or unarmed attack. Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed the Spellstrike. The infusion of spell energy grants your Strike the arcane trait, making it magical.
Important to note, this isn't two rolls, it isn't two separate actions.(it is two actions as a cost though) The strike determines whether the spell hits. It hasn't been two separate things since the playtest. The strike is the spell attack, they are one thing. It counts as two attacks *for the multiple attack penalty*. Kinda crucial
Ancillary Effects:
Your spell still has any non-targeted effects that might affect creatures other than the target, as well as any ongoing effects starting from the moment you hit with the Strike. For example, acid splash would still deal its splash damage to creatures other than the target and tanglefoot's circumstance penalty would last for its normal duration. The spell takes effect after the Strike deals damage; if the Strike has other special effects, the GM determines whether they happen before or after the spell.
The Ancillary portion doesn't seem to be a factor here at all. The flatfooted takes place before you hit with the spell and thus before the strike, and it isn't an effect which affects another target
From my understanding this shakes out two ways:
First—the spellstrike delivers a dormant spell, in which case no such flat footed component ever comes into play. You already hit or missed with the strike which substituted your spell attack, the flat footed to the spell attack never factors.
Or
Second—the spellstrike is itself affected by the magic and instead of merely delivering a dormant spell you activate it is "hot" all the way to the target which would include this teleportation-like effect and give flat footed to the strike. This seems to be somewhat supported by the fact that spellstrike says:
The infusion of spell energy grants your Strike the arcane trait, making it magical.
But also is seemingly contradicted by:
The effects of the spell don't occur immediately but are imbued into your attack instead.
But this contradiction can be logically resolved by assuming that the effect in this case is the damage, but the magic of the spell is still a component of making the strike which would allow for the flat footed bonus
Another point that shows that spells only effect are considered just after hit the first observation of Expansive Spellstrike:
If your Strike critically fails, the spell is lost with no effect.
If we consider this with "The spell takes effect after the Strike deals damage;" from Ancillary Effects description, my understand is that spell effects only starts in the moment of hit. So no hit bonus/penalties effect that comes from same spell are available to Spellstrike.
Another point that shows that spells only effect are considered just after hit the first observation of Expansive Spellstrike:
If your Strike critically fails, the spell is lost with no effect.If we consider this with "The spell takes effect after the Strike deals damage;" from Ancillary Effects description, my understand is that spell effects only starts in the moment of hit. So no hit bonus/penalties effect that comes from same spell are available to Spellstrike.
I really don't think we necessarily need this to come to this conclusion but regardless on thinking about it a little more I agree. Spellstrikes by RAW (and probably RAI) seem to not benefit from any special effects spells grant prior to hitting. So no teleporting swords. Amped Phase Bolt seems like a waste of focus points—and a waste of dedication feats—as written. I think I would test allowing a player to get flat footed from this combo because the investment seems steep to me, but I'm unsure if it would be overtuned or just kinda nice
Edit:
Pretty critically this also means the benefit of lowering circumstance bonuses from shields also doesn't happen. Which is pretty lame. Phase Bolt just seems like a terrible choice for spellstrike all the way around
Important to note, this isn't two rolls, it isn't two separate actions.(it is two actions as a cost though) The strike determines whether the spell hits.
Wrong analysis.
Spellstrike:" Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell"
Checks:
"1. Roll a d20 and identify the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply.
2. Calculate the result.
3. Compare the result to the difficulty class (DC).
4. Determine the degree of success and the effect."
So, you roll your attack and the result of your attack roll is for example 26. You then use this 26 to determine if the attack hits (so against the enemy AC). And you use this 26 to determine if the spell hits (so against the enemy flat footed AC).
The attack and the spells are separately handled and as such there's definitely a point in using an Amped Phase Bolt.
Important to note, this isn't two rolls, it isn't two separate actions.(it is two actions as a cost though) The strike determines whether the spell hits.Wrong analysis.
Spellstrike:
" Your spell is coupled with your attack, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell"
Checks:
"1. Roll a d20 and identify the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply.
2. Calculate the result.
3. Compare the result to the difficulty class (DC).
4. Determine the degree of success and the effect."So, you roll your attack and the result of your attack roll is for example 26. You then use this 26 to determine if the attack hits (so against the enemy AC). And you use this 26 to determine if the spell hits (so against the enemy flat footed AC).
The attack and the spells are separately handled and as such there's definitely a point in using an Amped Phase Bolt.
Spellstrike says your spell uses your attack roll result. It really comes down to what you understand as result, the number or the degree of success. After reading all the responses, I'm pretty sure RAW it is either option 2 or what Xethik said.
Honestly, I wish spellstrike had a "Any effect that would modify the spell attack roll result also applies to the strike" bit of text to it. Would make these interactions more straightforward and I don't think it would be umbalanced at all.
Spellstrike says your spell uses your attack roll result. It really comes down to what you understand as result, the number or the degree of success.
The term result is used for the number and degree of success for the degree of success. So it's the number from a strict RAW point of view.
Anyway, in 99% of cases, the degree of success will be the same. Remember that spells like Shocking Grasp don't work as they modify the result. Only the spells modifying the enemy AC (like Phase Bolt by the addition of Flat-Footed or the reduction of circumstance bonuses to AC) can generate this issue. And besides Phase Bolt, I don't see any.
Spellstrike says your spell uses your attack roll result. It really comes down to what you understand as result, the number or the degree of success.The term result is used for the number and degree of success for the degree of success. So it's the number from a strict RAW point of view.
Anyway, in 99% of cases, the degree of success will be the same. Remember that spells like Shocking Grasp don't work as they modify the result. Only the spells modifying the enemy AC (like Phase Bolt by the addition of Flat-Footed or the reduction of circumstance bonuses to AC) can generate this issue. And besides Phase Bolt, I don't see any.
Ah yup, I missed that terminology difference since it so rarely comes up. To be honest, I'd expect some text about being able to have different degrees of success between the strike and spell. Again, not common, but there are some abilities that give a circumstance bonus to AC against spells but not other effects. Also, technically, if you are Spellstriking with a ranged spell attack while flanking (not amped phase bolt), the flat-footed condition would not apply to the spell portion, yes?
I feel like the intent should be degree of success but you are right that you just use the numeric result. Weird.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like the intent should be degree of success but you are right that you just use the numeric result. Weird.
I don't know the intent. The use of the word result makes me think it has been carefully chosen, maybe to avoid circumventing high magical resistances.
Spellstrike says your spell uses your attack roll result. It really comes down to what you understand as result, the number or the degree of success.The term result is used for the number and degree of success for the degree of success. So it's the number from a strict RAW point of view.
Anyway, in 99% of cases, the degree of success will be the same. Remember that spells like Shocking Grasp don't work as they modify the result. Only the spells modifying the enemy AC (like Phase Bolt by the addition of Flat-Footed or the reduction of circumstance bonuses to AC) can generate this issue. And besides Phase Bolt, I don't see any.
If result refers to the number then I'll concede this is RAW, but the fact it doesn't ever mention differing degrees of success between the spell and the strike I think this isn't RAI
I don't know the intent. The use of the word result makes me think it has been carefully chosen, maybe to avoid circumventing high magical resistances.
Well this shouldn't factor, the strike is considered magical when you spellstrike. If anything increases to DC, the AC, against magic it should affect the strike too
If result refers to the number then I'll concede this is RAW, but the fact it doesn't ever mention differing degrees of success between the spell and the strike I think this isn't RAI
If you look at Channel Smite, you have an example of an ability that adds the spell effect to the Strike. It would have been very easy for Paizo to just make Spellstrike the same way, by just stating that the spell effects are added to the Strike effects.
But they didn't.Why... That's beyond our grasp. But it still looks like they wanted the spell and the strike to be handled entirely separately.
Well this shouldn't factor, the strike is considered magical when you spellstrike. If anything increases to DC, the AC, against magic it should affect the strike too
AC bonus against spells and spell attack rolls don't apply to the Strike. Reactions against spells modifying your AC don't apply either. So, it should factor.