Forbidden thought cantrip

[AlastarOG]

Greetings,

I have a bit of an interrogation about the forbidden thought cantrip:

You place a psychic lock in a foe's mind that prevents it from a specific action. Choose “Strike,” “Stride,” “Cast a Spell,” or a specific action you know the creature to have (such as “Breath Weapon” against a dragon). If the creature attempts that action on its next turn, it must surmount your lock to do so, causing it to take 1d6 mental damage plus your spellcasting ability modifier (with a basic Will save). The target is then temporarily immune for 1 minute.

Why use the "lock" terminology? Is the action forbidden until the save is successful? It doesn't sound like that from the cantrip, it sounds more like if they do the locked action they just take molding damage.

Then on an amp, if they fail they're stunned 1. Does that mean they lose all remaining actions in the round?

How do other people read this one ?

[breithauptclan]

Generally, saves are only rolled once. The results are then used any time during the spell's duration that the save results are needed.

So the Will save happens when you cast the spell. The results of that will save then apply any time the target would take damage from the spell.

If the target uses the specified action, then they take the damage (modified by the results of the will save).

If the spell is cast with the Amp, then when the spell is cast and they fail the save, then they are stunned 1 on your (the caster's) turn.

--------

It is also possible to read that spell description as that the target gets a new save every time that they attempt the forbidden action. But that also runs into the problems that we already know about for having a creature become stunned 1 during their own turn.

[breithauptclan]

It kind of reminds me of Psychic Venom. Whenever enchanted action is taken, Forbidden Thought deals 4 + 1d6 per level mental damage to that creature.

[AlastarOG]

Also reminds me of needle of vengeance

[breithauptclan]

It does. And I run that one the same way. One save and the result applies any time you would take damage from the spell.

[Baarogue]

I differ with breith on this. If you prefer breith's way of running the spell over the RAW, feel free to adopt that instead at your table

The Will save is taken when the target takes the action, not when the spell is cast, as that is when the basic save is mentioned in the spell's effect text. After they've rolled the save once they're immune for 1 minute, so they could take the "locked" action multiple times afterward without needing to save (or take damage) again. If they fail that save vs. the amped version they're also stunned 1, which does effectively end their turn

[Guntermench]

RAW yes, they'd be unable to act for the rest of the turn once they're stunned by the Amped version, which would be immediately. Unless an ally has a reaction to clear the condition, then they can use their last action or two if they have any left. I'd assume the "lock" is that and/or the damage, you're putting a mental block in.

[batimpact]

Does the stunned 1 target also lose that one action on their next turn? It hasn't reduced any action from the condition yet as far as I understand.

[Baarogue]

batimpact wrote:

Does the stunned 1 target also lose that one action on their next turn? It hasn't reduced any action from the condition yet as far as I understand.

Yes. They lose 1 action to stunned 1 when they would regain their actions, and then they lose the stunned condition, regain their other 2 actions and reaction, and can act and react normally

[batimpact]

Wow. That amp effect is a lot better than I thought. For how gimmicky the base cantrip is, the risk/reward for amping it makes more sense now.

[Guntermench]

They also can't talk or use any actions of any kind until they lose that action on the following turn.

It's pretty good. Just need to keep in mind that you can't have used the Cantrip on that target yet during that fight, so you only get one shot. They also may not use the action you want.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Found this threat when searching for opinions on this spell.

breithauptclan wrote:

Generally, saves are only rolled once. The results are then used any time during the spell's duration that the save results are needed.

So the Will save happens when you cast the spell. The results of that will save then apply any time the target would take damage from the spell.

If the target uses the specified action, then they take the damage (modified by the results of the will save).

If the spell is cast with the Amp, then when the spell is cast and they fail the save, then they are stunned 1 on your (the caster's) turn.

--------

It is also possible to read that spell description as that the target gets a new save every time that they attempt the forbidden action. But that also runs into the problems that we already know about for having a creature become stunned 1 during their own turn.

The difference I see between Forbidden Thought and Needle of Vengeance is that Needle specifies a Basic Will save in its saving throw description. Forbidden Thought gives a regular Will save in its descriptor, while specifying a Basic Will to reduce the damage. The way I read it, Forbidden Thought first requires a save to see if it sticks in the first place, then a second save for follow-up effects.

[HumbleGamer]

Is the target award of the action they should not perform?

[Dubious Scholar]

Guntermench wrote:

They also can't talk or use any actions of any kind until they lose that action on the following turn.

It's pretty good. Just need to keep in mind that you can't have used the Cantrip on that target yet during that fight, so you only get one shot. They also may not use the action you want.

"Strike" is probably a safe bet though. And geez, yeah, RAW getting hit with Stunned during your own turn is brutal.

[Guntermench]

Strike is probably safe yeah, but even that depends on if they know it's forbidden or not. If they do, they might have other options. Though even if they do avoid it, the Cantrip is pure value.