2E Alchemist: Do Additives on Double Brew affect both Brews?

[Christopher#2411504]

So, a question came up on the PFS 2E Discord. The best answer is "depends on table/DM". And I really think a question like that probably should not depend on table/DM. But my google Fu isn't good enough to find one. And the Society Errata appear silent.

The situation:
1. Double brew allows you to create 2 Quick Alchemy Products for the Action cost of one:

Quote:

You know your formulas so well that you can concoct two items at once. When using the Quick Alchemy action, instead of spending one batch of infused reagents to create a single item, you can spend up to two batches of infused reagents to make up to two alchemical items as described in that action. These items do not have to be the same.

2. Additives allow you to add Special things to stuff you make via (mostly) Quick Alchemy:

Quote:

Feats with the additive trait allow you to spend actions to add special substances to bombs or elixirs. You can add only one additive to a single alchemical item, and attempting to add another spoils the item. You can typically use actions with the additive trait only when you're creating an infused alchemical item, and some can be used only with the Quick Alchemy action. The additive trait is always followed by a level, such as additive 2. An additive adds its level to the level of the alchemical item you're modifying; the result is the new level of the mixture. The mixture's item level must be no higher than your advanced alchemy level.

3. The issue is that all the actual Additive feats say "an Alchemist Bomb", "an Elixir", "an [specific ALchemical Item]". Which is Singular. But Double Brew results two things.

So would the Additive affect both resulting infused items, or only one?

[Jonathan Morgantini]

Moved to PF2 Rules from PFS forums

[SuperBidi]

Not really.
Additive are for most of them usable once per day and target a single Bomb, Elixir and such. So you can't use the same additive on multiple Alchemical Items.

The question that remains is: Can you use different additives on each Alchemical Item?
And that's up to the GM because of the rules about triggers. You can only use one free action/reaction per trigger. So if the GM consider that Double Brew only has one trigger of "You use Quick Alchemy to craft an alchemical item", then you can only use one additive on one item. If the GM considers that there are 2 such triggers then you can use 2 different additives one on each item.

[Pixel Popper]

SuperBidi wrote:

Additive are for most of them usable once per day...

All of the Bomb additives are once per round.

[breithauptclan]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

So, a question came up on the PFS 2E Discord. The best answer is "depends on table/DM".

Ultimately I have to agree with that. There aren't any rules that I can quote to prove one side or the other.

Personally I would run it that one additive would only apply to one of the items being created. The two items would then be different - even if they would originally have been the same item. But creating different items with Double Brew is allowed.

However, creating two items with additives while only paying the cost for one additive when using Double Brew is definitely too good to be true. A more appropriate ruling would be that you could spend the additive cost twice to add the additive to both items being created with Double Brew.

[Christopher#2411504]

SuperBidi wrote:

Not really.

Additive are for most of them usable once per day and target a single Bomb, Elixir and such. So you can't use the same additive on multiple Alchemical Items.

Not a single Additive is 1/day.

Most are plain 1/round.

The worst is Fascinating explosion with 1/minute. Only one with that long CD.

[Christopher#2411504]

breithauptclan wrote:

However, creating two items with additives while only paying the cost for one additive when using Double Brew is definitely too good to be true. A more appropriate ruling would be that you could spend the additive cost twice to add the additive to both items being created with Double Brew.

The cost of Additive is that the bomb has to be lower then your max level. And naturally both would pay that.

Another cost is that you have to use Quick Alchemy, so you get the terrible 1 Reagent : 1 Bomb Ratio, instead of 2-3 you get normally.
Again both pay that price.

And the action to use the Ability, that is the only one both "get". But unless you got Enduring Alchemy, chances are high one of them is wasted either way.

[SuperBidi]

Pixel Popper wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Additive are for most of them usable once per day...

All of the Bomb additives are once per round.

I made a mistake when typing, I wanted to type once per round.

So you can't have one additive applied to 2 Items in the same round as all of them state that they apply to one Item.

[Christopher#2411504]

SuperBidi wrote:

Pixel Popper wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Additive are for most of them usable once per day...

All of the Bomb additives are once per round.

I made a mistake when typing, I wanted to type once per round.

So you can't have one additive applied to 2 Items in the same round as all of them state that they apply to one Item.

Is that your opinion just because it is RAW, or because you see any actual balance issues with it?

[breithauptclan]

Well, balance is in the hands of the players. That is why houserules even exist in the first place.

It is quite a bit of build cost to spend at least one more feat (Enduring Alchemy) in order to double the amount of items with additives that you can create. Though that feat is quite nice on its own.

I haven't analyzed things enough to determine if I personally like the change or not.

[SuperBidi]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Pixel Popper wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Additive are for most of them usable once per day...

All of the Bomb additives are once per round.

I made a mistake when typing, I wanted to type once per round.

So you can't have one additive applied to 2 Items in the same round as all of them state that they apply to one Item.

Is that your opinion just because it is RAW, or because you see any actual balance issues with it?

As it's the rules forum, I've answered per RAW.

Now, from a balance point of view, I don't think it'll generate any issue to allow a double Additive with Double Brew. Overall, additives are not very good feats, and Double Brew is extremely expensive.
The only thing you should care about when allowing it is the use with Perpetual Bombs. But even in that case it won't imbalance the game.

[The Raven Black]

If I read it correctly, an additive benefits an alchemical item when it is created. The fact that another item is created at the same moment does not change this.

So, what Superbidi said.