I've opined before that the biohacker is a dip class. Since then two things have happened to greatly further that opinion.
1) The genetics inhibitor got an epic beatdown with the nerf bat, changing from vulnerability to Half biohacker level to damage. This doesn't just change genetics, it makes the spark if inspiration ability to put 2 biohacks into one bullet/ target much, much weaker. -2 AC and vulnerability was an awesome once per day boss bullet. Now its -2 AC and.. wait , why am I here for 4 levels for this?
2) well all those high level theorems ... are now available to the Envoy. just take signature tool medicine, grab your trichorder and go. Same bab, but they actually get skill points per level. Their bonus to medicine is higher than a biohackers. The only advantage is a bonus to life and physical science, but since you can take 20 to ID things anyway or just take skill focus.
Which leaves the biohacker with what? Couch cushion money free medical kit, and additional theorems that expand out but don't scale up.
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Well, since your topic question was kind of clickbait, I'm going to take it at face value:
Yes, there's reason to be a non-dipping biohacker, mainly that this is a tabletop role-playing game not an MMO, and consequently story is more important than mechanics which are just there to support said story -- and that some people want to play a doctor and strictly a doctor, or maybe a combat medic, and they don't really care about being #1 DPS if taking levels in Soldier or what-have-you wouldn't really fit the biography of said character.
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Well, since your topic question was kind of clickbait, I'm going to take it at face value:
What is remotely click baity about it? There's absolutely nothing misleading about the title. There's the question "s the biohacker a dip class" and "why the heck I think the biohacker is a dip class....."
Yes, there's reason to be a non-dipping biohacker, mainly that this is a tabletop role-playing game not an MMO,
So your answer is the stormwind fallacy.
Terrible mechanics are not good role playing. Role playing is something the PLAYER does, assisted by mechanics, not by a name written on their character sheet. A class helps to breathe life and soul into a character by letting it do things, by SHOWING what the character is capable of, not by telling everyone they are this thing. If you can't play a doctor without being a biohacker, you can't play a soldier that's not a soldier or a soldier that's not a soldier , or a rogue without being a rogue then you have less than zero qualifications to disparage someone else's roleplay.
Which leaves the biohacker with what? Couch cushion money free medical kit, and additional
theoremsFields of study that expand out but don't scale up.
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Role playing is something the PLAYER does, assisted by mechanics,
So what's the point of playing a Mechanic, if all players are already assisted by mechanics?
I haven't played a biohacker yet, but In general, I really like Paizo games, their rule thick, have more character options than you can fit in a 9-digit number, and are covered in deep lore. All three which lead to opportunities for RP. I don't think rules get in the way of RP, I think of rules as RP cues you react to, more rules = more cues. We already know your dice want to kill you, so if a class/spell/whatever gets nerf to the point, that the best RP options are to RP a comedy of failed dice rolls, it can lose its fun over time.
. We already know your dice want to kill you, so if a class/spell/whatever gets nerf to the point, that the best RP options are to RP a comedy of failed dice rolls, it can lose its fun over time.
Lets say that your Idea is Dr Amazo the mad scientist medic adventurer.
I don't think that a Biohacker is going to be so nerfed that they can't function in an adventuring party.
But I do think that a biohacker 2 Envoy with a tricorder x is going to be BETTER at mad science adventuring in a way that is approaching objectively better. They can do more mad sciencey things better than the biohacker. The biohacker 2 Envoy X is a better biohacker than the Biohacker class just like....
So what's the point of playing a Mechanic, if all players are already assisted by mechanics?
Kind of true but a different thread.... The mechanics of the game don't let a Mechanic be a better mechanic better than the mechanics let the other characters mechanic...
1) The genetics nerf still stings...
2) "If you choose Medicine, your signature tool also functions as a 1st-level biohacker’s custom microlab (Character Operations Manual 41), though if you have a custom microlab from another class, add your envoy levels and the other class’s levels together for determining its abilities. You can select biohacker theorems as though they were expertise talents, qualifying for theorems using the sum of your envoy and biohacker levels as your biohacker level. However, this doesn’t grant you any other biohacker abilities, and you can’t select theorems that require another biohacker ability unless you’ve gained that required ability from another source."
That doesn't give you access to biohacks, but a biohacker 1/envoy 19 build would that care of that nicely, since biohacks don't seem to improve with level. But it kinda requires a WIS/INT + CHA build, doesn't it? Yikes.
That doesn't give you access to biohacks, but a biohacker 1/envoy 19 build would that care of that nicely, since biohacks don't seem to improve with level. But it kinda requires a WIS/INT + CHA build, doesn't it? Yikes.
Well, hence the question wasn't "is the biohacker dead?" because this is a gaming forum and an obscene certain amount of pedanticism is to be expected... So yes the idea is biohacker dip and then envoy with tricorder functionally replaces the biohacker. The biohacker doesn't have any good higher level abilities except the theorems and almost? none? of its abilities scale with level except for the theorems (Which Dippy Can get with just one level)
The Envoy hacker needs dex or strength if you want to hit anything, and biohackers need to hit things to biohack.
But Why would you NEED charisma to be an envoy? You have resolve off of Int for your biohacker levels. You get the 6 skill points per level, and envoys have an often overlooked ability to scale up a bunch of int skills like computers and engineering. You can take diplomacy if you want and with the d6 and reroll a good charisma would be a cherry on the sunday but not strictly neccesary.
Starfinder also makes spreading out your stats a lot easier than pathfinder. Unless you HAVE to have that 18 at the start you can reasonably grow out for versatility
Dr. Bedside Manner Ysoki BioVoy.
Str 8
dex 16 (4 points)
con 10
int 14 (2 points)
wis 10
cha 14 (4 points)
(Note, his is the point spread for my Sharpshooter1 Envoy 7 ysoki in SFS. She does amazing as the party face and or Tech person depending on which bag of mixed nuts she's with)
What really stings about the nerf was that it was playtested and then took 3? years to come about. People re arrange schedules and run games and test it, and then the data just.. doesn't get listened to. There's only something like 20 biohacker playtest threads, the overpowered nature of the genetics came up in 4ish? of them, and one thread was specifically "hey, genetics is head shoulder and other mutant head above the other options..."
A guide to optimizing Starfindr for mad science sounds fun, or even a full mad science operation manual.
It's a pop up book and comes with its own skein of yarn :)
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Well, hence the question wasn't "is the biohacker dead?" because this is a gaming forum and an obscenecertain amount of pedanticism is to be expected... So yes the idea is biohacker dip and then envoy with tricorder functionally replaces the biohacker. The biohacker doesn't have any good higher level abilities except the theorems and almost? none? of its abilities scale with level except for the theorems (Which Dippy Can get with just one level)[...]
Seems reasonable...
Ah, but the Envoy only gets 5 expertise talents, while the biohacker gets 10 theorems.
And how about action economy, would the biovoy be able to usefully combine his improvisations and theorems while in combat? Though I suppose you can just pick a lot of passive ones.
Ah, but the Envoy only gets 5 expertise talents, while the biohacker gets 10 theorems.
This might change as the game expands, but currently there aren't a lot of really good theorems. The 2 level dip gets you medication mastery and keeps you only 1 theorem short for most of what you'll likely play.
And how about action economy, would the biovoy be able to usefully combine his improvisations and theorems while in combat? Though I suppose you can just pick a lot of passive ones.
The biovoy can move/attack and the biohack is part of the attack. The only exception i see is when biohacking your team mates, in which case you move action get em and then shoot your ally in the rump.
The Feint/Biohack/Get em combo is nasty. That's an effective +6 to hit one someone.
I think I may have found my next character...
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Honestly I think signature tool option for envoy was sort of a mistake. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the reason it was banned in sfs, for reasons stated in this thread. I don't think I would allow it in games I run
Honestly I think signature tool option for envoy was sort of a mistake. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the reason it was banned in sfs, for reasons stated in this thread. I don't think I would allow it in games I run
OH! I did not realize that. Thank you. I saw that the option was legal but not that one of its component parts was banhammered (Rightfully. Clause 4, eating another classes lunch)
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For me whats missing from the biohacker is an EAC weapon that lets you use medicine.
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Heavy Weapon with injection property when XD (Seriously, there's a dart cannon and everything!) Imagine being able to load 5 serums of healing into an injection blast heavy weapon, and heal your whole squad at once! (Assuming they're all in a smallish cone in front of you, anyways!)
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So your answer is the stormwind fallacy.
The stormwind fallacy is a reply to people who say that good optimization and good roleplaying are incompatible. What I said is that deciding to be a biohacker because out of all the classes it reflects your character's life choices best is a reason to play biohacker. And if you're really going to argue that it's not, then hey, go police someone else's game because my doors are locked, you're not invited, and you're making my players uncomfortable.
The point of my reply was to establish that some of us don't play this for the numbers game. Your thread wasn't "Does the Biohacker overall have sub-par damage and defense compared to other classes?". If it was, I would have been happy to move on, as I'm not interested in number crunching and theorycrafting. But you didn't, you went with a clickbait thread title and I piped up with one, to which you've now replied in bad faith and insulted the intelligence of anyone who plays this for reasons not tied to "hurr hurr number go down faster"
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They didn't say that and you just seem to be being rude.
The stormwind fallacy is a reply to people who say that good optimization and good roleplaying are incompatible.
this is a tabletop role-playing game not an MMO, <--- That is the ur example of the stormwind fallacy
Right from the source
Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.
You are insisting that without biohacker in the name the character lacks the heart and soul to be a doctor or mad scientist and that just does not follow.
Optimization and role play are largely orthogonal. I am asking about improving mechanics to meet an idea, your response was that it worsened role play. That is the heart of the stormwind fallacy.
And if you're really going to argue that it's not, then hey, go police someone else's game because my doors are locked, you're not invited, and you're making my players uncomfortable.
Me "Hey, this class seems to have a rather glaring design flaw where it doesn't provide the mechanical benefits to meet its narrative goals/ another class can better fulfill its narative goals/ anywhere besides level one, I think I'm right, am I missing anything?"
(turns out I WAS missing that DR Mouse character option had the SFS banhammer so that was good to know..)Your response was and is that such considerations made the characters number crunched machines.
YOU are the one grilling other peoples characters here. You are the one policing games and insulting other players.
The point of my reply was to establish that some of us don't play this for the numbers game. Your thread wasn't "Does the Biohacker overall have sub-par damage and defense compared to other classes?". If it was, I would have been happy to move on, as I'm not interested in number crunching and theorycrafting.
It isn't just about DPR. And if you'd given my post a fair reading you would know that. Two of the chief complaints were the biohackers low skill points and meh bonus to medicine compared to the alternative. (not said but kind of obvious, that it makes you worse at sciencing)
DPR is AN important consideration. I have not stated, hinted or implied that it is the only consideration, and have no idea why someone would think that.
Its about narrative power. Do the mechanics match the idea? Mutating your friends to give them gills or flippers doesn't add DPR but does let people overcome obstacles. Sucking the blood out of a monster and injecting it into your party to give them abilities doesn't neccesarily increase dpr, but would be a cool mechanic that SHOWS the mad science in a way that is mechanically useful.
A biohacker does these things through theorems. But if those exact same theorems are available to the biovoy, then there's no reason not to be a biovoy instead.
You seem very hung up on somethings name. That is not role playing. That isn't showing, its telling.
"If you are a real mad scientist show me your credentials"
Option A: It says biohacker right here
Option B: I give them flippers, tentacles, and a caffine injection so they can work harder all night.
It is not bad wrong fun to have a Soldier that has 3 levels of envoy (they're a drill sergeant) Or a sharpshooting soldier thats never seen a day of basic (they're a spaceolympics archer) You are leaning heavily on that paradigm, and worse, assuming that others MUST do so as well.
But you didn't
Yes. Oddly enough I did not go with the title that was not remotely my point. Because DPR as the only thing a class is supposed to do is a strawman.
you went with a clickbait thread title and I piped up with one, to which you've now replied in bad faith and insulted the intelligence of anyone who plays this for reasons not tied to "hurr hurr number go down faster"
I have no idea why you hate me so much, but it is seriously impeding your ability to read what's being said which is worsening your opionnion of me which is going to keep you from reading whats being said.
A class that does not work is a design problem for the class, not an aspersion on other peoples characters.
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Hmm, looks like Leon Aquilla editted their post to be much less rude so my post looks abit odd. For context they did a very rude strawman of BigNorseWolf as their entire post originally.
As for your new version of your post. It isn't policing other peoples concepts to point out that x concept handles y flavour the same or better than another option, and then seeing issue when that x is also mechanically superior to y.
What was being discussed was if there was a reason to play pure biohacker over something with the same flavour but better mechanics. The same roleplaying and fantasy, just better/worse mechanically. So the rp aspect isn't as relevant, because the same rp will be happening either way.
What I think would be a more understandable answer would be "If you don't care about being optimal and am fine with the simplicity of you're build." since I know many players are more comfortable with more straight forward builds.
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When I think of the mechanics that would make me reach for a Biohacker, I think of four stand-out things:
1. Administering stuff to allies without having to make attack rolls/dmg
2. Injection weapon proficiency (and the hand-waving of the order in which ammo is loaded into injection weapons)
3. The Neurochemistry Field of Study's booster, which is one of the very few ways of reliably dealing with Confusion
4. Swapping Int/Wis for useful things, depending on Scientific Method.
5. Pour one out for the nerfed Genetics inhibitor
...and looking at that list, they're all at level 1.
While it's not wrong, per se, to say "lvls 2-20 in Biohacker aren't mechanically strong" it is, I think, a bit of a disservice to the class, and certainly to the class fantasy. By, for example, taking a signature item medical envoy instead of a biohcker, you miss out on secondary/tertiary fields of study, Breakthroughs, some Injection Expert progression, and Spark of Ingenuity, which isn't nothing. Overall, I'd prefer to flip it around and say rather that the take-away here is, "lvl 1 Biohackers get a lot of really cool stuff" :)
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Kishmo, what exactly do you mean by class fantasy?
Mechanics are all that a class gives you. A class doesn't exist as anything but a grouping of mechanics. It is those mechanics that help give the class and the characters that select it the flavor, not the platonic idea of a class.
As your character grows, gaining access to new abilities is what makes them more of the class. A higher number on the sheet next to the name doesn't make them smurfier, abilities to smurf that come with the higher number make them smurfier.
The higher levels of the class aren't nothing. But whether they are something or they are nothing is a mathematicians (or an android. or an android mathematicians) answer. There's an opportunity cost there, and if you're going 6 levels through a class for a first level ability (the secondary field of study) it is VERY unlikely that the opportunity cost is worth it to a character. The question should always be is this helping my mad scientist do more mad science stuff?
The theorems tend to be useful but boring (painful injection) or interesting but internally nerfed to uselessness (I can give you gills just wait ten minutes!) that don't seem to be balanced around the fact that are other ways of accomplishing the same goals through equipment.
Spark of ingenuity is only once or twice a day , and -2 to AC and some other effect has diminishing returns over -2 AC.
After first level the injection expert is just mathematically an attack bonus. Anything that gives it back (a soldiers bab or an envoys get em) makes up for it.
I have a biohacker 1/Mystic (justin) 7 and a Sharpshooter soldier 1 Biohacker 7. (Mom*) In straightforward combat they play VERY similarly. (To the point that people I've spent multiple games with will be shocked when it hits the fan and the mystic starts with the healing channels: they couldn't tell not all of the levels were biohacker) there are theoretically more ways to take advantage of medication mastery for different attack routines, but they involve either KAC weapons or 4 arms
or forgoing damage entirely
*she had 36 kids all going "momomomomomomoom so thats just her name now
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By class fantasy, I mean: the ideas, feelings, imagery, examples, and archetypes/stereotypes that people think of when they think of [[whatever class.]] It's the fantasies that people want to play, embody, explore, or fulfill (or maybe refute!) when they're thinking up a character, perhaps even before picking a class.
For instance: I know you've helped a number of folks into the hobby at org play tables; you know that thing when you're talking through the initial character creation process, it's not uncommon for someone to say "I want to be a real Raistlin type" or "can I play a Han Solo-esque character" or "I want to be smart and capable, like Batman" or "I'd like to be a stoic, strong-and-silent warrior PC" or what have you? They're talking about class fantasies.* "I want to use magic to blast my enemies" or "I want to be able to fix anything" and so on.
I guess it's more of an MMO thing, but still very much applicable to any RPG. Like, if you want to play a sneaky blade in the dark character, that 'class fantasy' is most easily served with an Operative. If you want to play the wise-cracking scoundrel who can talk their way out of any situation, that 'class fantasy' is most easily achieved with an Envoy.
I think that's why your envoy/biohacker revelation rankles so much: it highlights that while the 'class fantasy' of "mad doctor/scientist that uses their mad science offensively and defensively" squarely lines up with the lore, description, and vibe of the biohacker, it maybe doesn't line up the best, mechanically. And I must concede, you are mechanically correct (the best kind of correct!)
It's the same reason why there was a lot of hemming and hawing over the playtest Evolutionist: people thought the class was going to do, or be about, one thing, but then found that the mechanics didn't really reflect that. There was a conflict between the expectation (the 'class fantasy' of shapeshifting, changing one's body, swapping augmentations in or out ) and the reality (an up-and-down Evolutionist Point yo-yo mechanic, with little to the class outside of combat.)
Lastly; this bit? "A class doesn't exist as anything but a grouping of mechanics"
I would counter that that is a mathematician's (or an android's, or an android mathematician's) answer :D
*Tangent: Starfinder did a very good job of making a lot of these 'class fantasies' not tied to one specific class or build. You can, arguably, build Han Solo as either an Envoy, or an Operative, but either way, fans would still look at it and go "yep, that's Han Solo." But that's neither here nor there.
The biovoy rankles a little because you made a class better at biohacking than the biohacker. Or at least made them just as good at biohacking along with a bunch of other goodies.
The dip rankles a bit because... it shows how vacuous all those biohacker levels are. The biohacker is really missing a lot of things that would let them fulfill that class fantasy, especially as they level.
I guess it's more of an MMO thing
Its definitely an RPG thing because you're making YOUR character as a person and the rules have to be able to support that.
In an MMO you are being given a class and a talent tree and thats your only tool for being able to make your character fit your idea. Class fantasy and character fantasy become synonymous
A class is one designers attempt to fulfill a common character fantasy. . But in an RPG, with a bigger toolbox of classes, feats, class abilities, multiclassing etc. you have options that your MMO doesn't have. Class fantasy and character fantasy diverge.
That divergence is why looking at what a class really is is NOT a A mathematicians answer. A class is a tool in the box for how to fulfill a character fantasy. And if it doesn't work, or something else works better, then use that tool to the betterment of your character and the fulfillment of that idea.
Breaking the paradigm that the two are synonymous is important. It opens up a wide variety of character ideas. Your Soldier could be R. Lee Ermey as a badass envoy, a soldier can be an olympic sharp shooter, or brutaris lineman etc.
It's the same reason why there was a lot of hemming and hawing over the playtest Evolutionist:
If it doesn't adapt it should be called an Apotheosisistist ....
Same problem with the shifter. It was Billed as beast boy, it came as wolverine.
I like starfinder for the adventures. But for the system, I was hoping it would even out more of the problems it started with than it has. The mechanic TELLS me that it's great at hacking and computers and stuff but the operative SHOWS me that its better at hacking and computers and stuff.
The biohacker SAYS its great at mad science but doesn't really show it... to the point that I'm no less a mad scientist for minoring in biohacking and skivving off for a music major...
Honestly for me it's more a battle orientated librarian over say a mad scientist.
Ok, so what does a biohacker 8 do to BE a battle oriented librarian that a biohacker 1 operative 7 doesn't ? Compare Dr. Checkout (the pure biohacker) with Dr. Latefee (the biohacker1 /operative)
Dr. Latefee (the evil, alternate universe version of your biohacker with a mustache and cowboy had and envoy levels) has
10* +int Skill points per level. Almost double the skill points of Dr. Checkout. My biohacker occasionally quips that culture comes out of a petrie dish because they don't have enough skill ranks for culture.
A nasty debuffing trick attack, so you're flat footed AND biohacked for a 4 point swing
A bucket full of D8s > +1/2 int from painful injection and full level on pistols. If you really want a sniper rifle you can take the sniping operative.
the same bonus to ALL skills than the biohacker has to medicine and life science (for 3/4 levels)
It sounds like the problem isn't the biohacker per se, but that other classes have been given options to easily steal/duplicate what should make the biohacker feel special. (A bit like a low-level PF1 spellcaster figuring out how to get knock, jump, detect traps, and invisibility to make the party rogue feel kinda useless.)
It sounds like the problem isn't the biohacker per se, but that other classes have been given options to easily steal/duplicate what should make the biohacker feel special. (A bit like a low-level PF1 spellcaster figuring out how to get knock, jump, detect traps, and invisibility to make the party rogue feel kinda useless.)
I think that just highlights the problem. It's not that the spells were bad, so much as the PF1 rogue just didn't have any abilities to be roguey. Besides it being a class skill what did they have that really let them sneak ? That sort of thing.
Even discounting the trichorder envoy, What does a more than dipped biohacker have to steal? Treat condition, a lot of which you can do with cheap medicinals.
Nothing in the class scales, and the higher level abilities are very meh, and too many theorems require you to keep buying into the same tree to get any good.
going to level 8 with a biohack that doesn't work on half the bad guys.. well antagonists
Sharpshooter soldier is almost a +2 to hit effectively. Unless you have a higher level scope and only shoot once per round. Sharpshooting soldiers and biohackers can dip each other fairly easy.
Operative dipping into biohacker is absurdly good. You move perception and sense motive and perception move over to int based skills. And your trick attack can do a 4 point swing of flat footed and biohacked.