Hello everyone, first time poster and new to Pathfinder, came from 5e.
We are currently going through The Beginner's box, and asking anyone who has experience with the Magus, I was wondering if a Sparkling Targe Magus would make a viable Defender/Tank?
I realize that the title 'tank' is a bit inappropriate as that's not really how Pathfinder works, but as a Defender other than Attack of Opportunity it seems a little lacking unless you grab Champion as an archetype, which has a steep Charisma cost.
Party currently consists of:
Orc Sparkling Targe Magus - me
Utility wizard
Utility / DPS rogue
Wrestlemania Monk
Potential healing class to join
I am pretty dead set on the Magus because I think it is awesome as a class and I've always wanted to play a Gish Style character, but was originally Inexorable Iron before I switched to Sparkling Targe because we had no real frontliner aside from the Monk. We do have free archetypes, so I plan on getting Bastian and Sentinel. I guess my concern comes from the relatively low HP and AC compared to a Champion, Fighter, or Monk that dedicates to this role. And from my little research, later tears of play involves such high to-hit and damage output that Shields would break constantly and my AC would not negate crits well enough. Also the lack of Party defense, from trips, intimidate, or the like. The Magus seems very action-intensive with Spellstrike, Recharge/Conflux, moving, etc...
All that being said, I'm going to do it anyway because it sounds awesome. Just curious if I am setting myself up for a hard time or if there's any obvious tactics I am missing. Thank you everyone in advance.
If a Magus, then Sparkling Targe is the best defensive role, but Magus itself isn't built for defense. Bastion will be necessary to hold your own, so yay, but as you've noted, you'll lag behind the true frontline classes (even w/ Sentinel too, though every AC point matters). A lot will depend on how the Monk & Rogue play, and whether they can share in the burden (w/ the Rogue taking less of course, but hopefully finishing off/debuffing enemies fast enough to make up the difference). You'll also want to emphasize mobility to make up for heavy armor and your actions used for your shield.
Shield Block's very helpful in this, but it does eat into your actions/Reactions on a class that needs to juggle a lot. And that defense is only one (or later two) attacks per round, so yeah, you need some friends around. With Sturdy Shield(s), you'll get a significant pool of hit points, but yeah, you're going to need to Repair via Craft in between battles. In published PF2 adventures this is generally fine, as they expect you to usually break to do Medicine anyway.
Most times in giving advice it's about managing expectations, yet it seems you've got a clear understanding that the going will be tough and that it takes investment merely to become viable as a defender (much less to flourish).
As for gish, a Magus is about as close as you can get in PF2, but recognize that its magic is most effective via its weapons. Direct spells won't be as effective (and shouldn't be since you'll need Con > Int), so some of the gish imagery needs adjustment. Thankfully the Wizard can help in IDing enemy Weaknesses, which can help you both shine.
It works, and low levels your saves will be very high when your shield is raised.
Action economy is a bit hard, so remember that you don't have to spell strike every round and that being in arcane cascade is your friend.
For spell slots at low levels long lasting buffs are probly best, like longstrider and magic weapon. Cantrips will provide all the damage you need.
Check with your GM if they would let your last action from the previous round count as the triggering condition for arcane cascade, as this allows you to repeat the cantrip or detect magic spell as your exploration activity, which in turn enables you to start every encounter with arcane cascade (albeit one with locked damage, but at least you have your arcane cascade benefits to shield).
If your target is standing still next to you, spellstrike+shielded strike is a great high burst damage combo.
Personally I think it is viable, but there are certainly classes that do it better out of the box.
If Champion is too expensive (and I rather agree), then you might look at Bastion or Viking for extra abilities to use with a shield.
What Magus is lacking compared to other classes that do tanking better is HP. So you will have to compensate for that more by bumping your CON and/or taking Toughness. And even with that, you will likely be able to tank for fewer rounds than a Champion or Fighter could.
Though you can offset that with some buff spells that the Champion or Fighter wouldn't have easy access to.
Let's see:
Cons:
- 8hp/lvl
- Juggernaut feature by lvl 17
- Sparkling targe hardness is almost worthless ( few enemies will cast spells )
- Clunky mechanics ( raise shield competes with spellstrike, trustrike and recharge ).
- No quick shield block feat
Pros:
- Good armor proficiency progression ( 1-11-17 rather than 1-13-19 ).
- Some arcane spells are pretty solid in terms of defense (stoneskin, for example, could provide a great boost for the tank magus ).
I think that with some archetypes ( bastion, champion, sentinel ) it might become more reliable, though it won't be that strong as a fighter, champion, warpriest, battle oracle, monk, etc...
But it's just a comparison between classes.
Adventure path can be dealt with even with a ruffian tank, so if you like the concept, go with it.
My main suggestion is to try some white room scenario in order to see if the 3 actions you are going to play with are ok for all your routine
- Spellstrike
- Truestrike ( occasionally )
- Recharge
- Strike
- Raise shield
Keep also in mind you won't get an extra shield block before lvl 10 ( bastion or viking dedication ).
HumbleGamer wrote: My main suggestion is to try some white room scenario in order to see if the 3 actions you are going to play with are ok for all your routine
- Spellstrike
- Truestrike ( occasionally )
- Recharge
- Strike
- Raise shield
I would agree with this plan of running a simulated combat or two in order to get the feel for what is and isn't effective.
Personally I don't think it is too bad of action competition. No worse than many other classes. You do have to decide what you do each round. But that is fairly common for most spellcasting classes (Bard being the big exception).
HumbleGamer wrote: Keep also in mind you won't get an extra shield block before lvl 10 ( bastion or viking dedication ). You do get Reactive Shield though. Immediately with Bastion dedication, and at level 4 with Viking. While you can't both Reactive Shield and Shield Block on the same round, the AC boost alone is still pretty good on rounds where you are spending a lot of actions on other things like Spellstrike.
Trading a reaction, and the possibility to shield block, to save an action is not bad, while raising the shield with one action and then shieldblocking one attack would result in more survival for the magus.
I'd probably alternate between them ( depends the situation, the shield health, the magus health, the incoming damage, etc... ).
Because of the action economy of Magus, sparkling targe is likely best when it's focusing on emergency targe as it's defense and only raising their shield with their conflux spell. Focus on getting your focus point pool maxed out and pick up the extra points per refocus and it's not a bad action rotation.
Sparkling targe has one of the better conflux spells in my opinion. Just after dimensional disappearance. The other 3 are more situational. +2 ac and shield block are always useful.
I think a Sparkling Targe Magus with the Psychic Multiclass archetype (Tangible Dream) might be fun.
As a psi cantrip, you can cast shield on others and even use it to shield block for them. If you amp it then you can sustain it for up to a minute and use it to block up to three times (although you lose the +1 bonus after the first block).
So you could simultaneously use the shield spell to help an ally while using a physical shield for yourself.
Shielding Strike allows you to cast the shield spell and strike all as one action. That's nice, but the action economy could be tough if you want to sustain the spell. And you'd only be able to block with one of the shields each round since you'd only have one reaction.
But even the non-amped version is nice since you could grant an ally the +1 bonus and shield block once for them.
Shielding strike is cool to have, but it's not quite useful unless you want to cast a good spell.
Strike, raise, recharge
Vs
Shielding strike + ???
It could be an electric arc or another saving throw spell, but if they had added "you can perform a strike" Rather than "make a melee strike", then it would have been perfect.
HumbleGamer wrote: Shielding strike is cool to have, but it's not quite useful unless you want to cast a good spell.
Strike, raise, recharge
Vs
Shielding strike + ???
It could be an electric arc or another saving throw spell, but if they had added "you can perform a strike" Rather than "make a melee strike", then it would have been perfect.
Strikes and strides are still always an option. You could also save your cascade for the second round after your conflux as is common.
aobst128 wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Shielding strike is cool to have, but it's not quite useful unless you want to cast a good spell.
Strike, raise, recharge
Vs
Shielding strike + ???
It could be an electric arc or another saving throw spell, but if they had added "you can perform a strike" Rather than "make a melee strike", then it would have been perfect.
Strikes and strides are still always an option. You could also save your cascade for the second round after your conflux as is common. The spell states that you have to strike, then raise either your shield or cast the shield cantrip.
Being a conflux spell, it also recharges your spellstrike.
The dimensional assault, lvl 10, feat offers an extra possibility, explicitly warning you that you are now able to forgo your strike.
As for arcane cascade, you are required to do it in the round you cast the spell or use spellstrike ( this has already been addressed by devs that whenever is said "if your most recent action was", then it is intended to be withing that very turn ).
HumbleGamer wrote: aobst128 wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Shielding strike is cool to have, but it's not quite useful unless you want to cast a good spell.
Strike, raise, recharge
Vs
Shielding strike + ???
It could be an electric arc or another saving throw spell, but if they had added "you can perform a strike" Rather than "make a melee strike", then it would have been perfect.
Strikes and strides are still always an option. You could also save your cascade for the second round after your conflux as is common. The spell states that you have to strike, then raise either your shield or cast the shield cantrip.
Being a conflux spell, it also recharges your spellstrike.
The dimensional assault lvl 10 feat properly points this out, which explicitly warns you that you are now able to forgo your strike.
As for arcane cascade, you are required to do it in the round you cast the spell or use spellstrike ( this has already been addressed by devs that whenever is said "if your most recent action was", then it is intended to be withing that very turn ). I meant as your 2 actions in the turn you use shielded strike could be strides or strikes as you were wondering. As for cascade, yes you do need to use it the same turn as the spell for it's requirement. I meant you would do this the second round as in round 2 starts and you use shielded strike and then cascade as your first round is probably best used with a spellstrike.
aobst128 wrote:
I meant as your 2 actions in the turn you use shielded strike could be strides or strikes as you were wondering. As for cascade, yes you do need to use it the same turn as the spell for it's requirement. Nothing is stopping you from using it after a conflux spell and because of their inherent efficiency, it's not a bad idea.
Oh, I do agree with you then ( my point was that using shield raise without having to expend a reaction + recharge + spellstrike in the same round would have been gorgeous. Using spellstrike with a -5 is something I wouldn't dare to do ).
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HumbleGamer wrote: aobst128 wrote:
I meant as your 2 actions in the turn you use shielded strike could be strides or strikes as you were wondering. As for cascade, yes you do need to use it the same turn as the spell for it's requirement. Nothing is stopping you from using it after a conflux spell and because of their inherent efficiency, it's not a bad idea.
Oh, I do agree with you then ( my point was that using shield raise without having to expend a reaction + recharge + spellstrike in the same round would have been gorgeous. Using spellstrike with a -5 is something I wouldn't dare to do ). Right. Still have to use conflux spells as "off turns" where you don't spellstrike. But you beat me to my edit you punctual punk.
Thank you everyone for your input, it has been really helpful.
I ended up switching orc to half-orc... optimizing is overrated, multi-talented is really tempting, and my weapon of choice wouldn't feel right on a full orc. As a background I chose Former Aspis Consortium Agent for story and that awesome Reach asp coil (shout out to Ivy). Figure reach will help a little bit with durability. Plus using that with acid splash spellstrike is so thematic... Gnome Flick Mace just feels dirty.
Had another character join as a paladin wielding a bastard sword, so with him and a monk, I won't have to hold the front line all the time, though I am the only Shield user.
Plan to use cantrips mostly for spellstrike, with the slots going to buff spells and walls. Psychic archetype eventually for the amped shield and a few extra spells. Going to be hard to fit that in with Bastion and Sentinel though.
Flickmace is indeed dirty, while it's obvious for a character to use the best weapon existing in order to increase their chance of survival.
It's like having a fluorescent pink sword, which deals more damage and at higher range than a glorious longsword. Everybody will go for it because of its efficiency.
Keep in mind that being frontline can mean either that you are a melee character or/and a tank.
For example, a group of combatants not investing in AC or defensive reactions, may find themselves annihilated, especially during boss fights ( or while properly flanked).
But I understand it's something that has to be seen on the board.
I can only suggest to keep track how often a critical hit is turned out into a hit because of the +2 AC from shield raise, or vice versa, as well as a hit turned into a miss and vice versa.
Respectively, on your character ( which has +2 AC) or your allies.
The champion defense won't kick in until lvl 7, while the monk would be equal to a plate user ( if dex based) or a medium/light armor one ( if str based with 16 dex).
PS: Consider alao getting plate proficiency asap to better mitigate damage.
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