I have a question about how the shared hit point pool interacts with various effects.
First, here is the relevant language from the Summoner class:
Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points. Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable). For instance, if you and your eidolon get caught in an area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of healing or damage applies.
An AoE spell includes both of you. That's pretty clear. You both make saves; the worse save takes effect when determining hit point loss.
What if electric arc or magic missile targets both of you? You are arguably being "subjected" to different "effects," but one could read the spell as a single effect.
And what about chain lightning? Can you effectively be double-attacked by this spell?
What do people think? Thanks in advance!
Well, the base wording is effect, with an AoE a subset of that, so the connection applies to non-AoE multi-target effects too.
So for Electric Arc & Chain Lightning, yes, you'd both be targeted, but only take the worst of the two results. Those are each one effect, so it seems pretty straightforward.
Magic Missile's weirder because the implication is that the caster could have done more damage targeting one of you rather than splitting it. That feels off, but does seem the natural reading. A way to tweak this would be to consider each missile (or cluster) its own effect, so the cumulative damage all applies. Since this doesn't increase the damage (which I think is the point of this ability so Summoners can survive as well as any "single-target" PCs), this seems fine IMO.
Not sure about a single spell (et al) that has multiple effects, especially if it seems the damage gets spread so no single target gets the bulk of it. Since I can't think of any examples though... *shrug*
Not sure about a single spell (et al) that has multiple effects, especially if it seems the damage gets spread so no single target gets the bulk of it. Since I can't think of any examples though... *shrug*
Scorching Ray? Swipe?
I would agree that the key rule is the line "if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable)."
The next line about AoE is just one example - though probably the most common one.
I think each effect would have to be judged by the GM specifically. I am not sure that the stated rule is specific enough to all of the various possibilities since we don't have defined game terms for 'effect' or 'instance of damage'.
Electric Arc has a save, and I would run it the same way as an AoE - both Summoner and Eidolon make saving throws and the pair takes the highest of the resulting damage.
Magic Missile: If the attacker decides to split the missiles and have some hit each, I would combine the damage back together again and apply it to the pair. Unless the character knowingly wanted to split the damage up so that the pair ends up not taking as much damage.
Scorching Ray I would probably run similarly to Electric Arc. Make both attack rolls against the Summoner and Eidolon, and use the higher final damage result.
Not sure on Swipe. Or Flurry of Blows. Or other physical damage combat feats where the same attack causes Strike actions against both Summoner and Eidolon. For most of them, the attacker can remove all ambiguity and pile all of the Strikes on one or the other - probably the Summoner. But Swipe requires attacking them both once each.
Hadn't considered Strikes...
Like Whirlwind Attack would be double trouble IMO, and things like the Hydra hitting several people.
Should it hurt so much to fight side by side?
If separate attack rolls, probably, but yeah, Swipe does seem like one bigger attack that hits two targets more than distinct instances. Hmm.
Yeah. There was another thread on here recently asking why monsters even have attacks that have to spread their damage across multiple targets rather than being able to focus them on one character. Undoing that by having the one attack hit the Summoner Eidolon pair twice seems like it is reintroducing the problem that the attack is trying to avoid - piling too much damage onto one character too fast.
So I would go with the idea that if the attack allows piling all of the damage onto one target, then the damage gets combined when it applies to the Summoner - even if the attacker accidentally or unknowingly spreads the damage to both of them. Examples, Double Slice, Flurry of Blows, Magic Missile.
But ones that require different targets in order to affect more than one of them, then the Summoner only takes the highest of the damage. Examples, AoE spells, Swipe, Scorching Ray, Gug Furious Claws, Hydra Storm of Jaws.
My gut tells me this for a general rule: for spells and effects that "happen" to include more creatures within their effect, I'd treat them like the fireball spell in the RAW example.
But if the attacker is choosing to distribute a limited number of attacks between the Summoner and the Eidolon, then they all count. Especially since the attacker doesn't necessarily know that they have a link. It would unfairly "punish" the attacker otherwise. And the summoner and eidolon aren't getting "double punished" for an effect that had limited efficacy anyway.
(Chain Lightning affecting the Summoner twice seems too brutal, and it arguably has a "limitless" resource, so I wouldn't allow it to target the Summoner/Eidolon pair twice.)
Same outcome on Chain Lightning, though perhaps for different reasoning.
Chain Lightning doesn't allow targeting the same creature twice. Same as with Swipe or Scorching Ray or Fireball. So while you can hit both the Summoner and Eidolon with Chain Lightning, the pair will only take the higher of the damage results, not both damage values combined.
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if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable).
What if electric arc or magic missile targets both of you? You are arguably being "subjected" to different "effects," but one could read the spell as a single effect.
This reminds me of the discussion on Swipe and how it interacted with Devise a Stratagem.
I think the best answer lies in the definition and rules in this section surrounding the term Effect . Cherry picking some quotes:
Anything you do in the game has an effect,
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds,
Some effects require you to choose specific targets,
Some effects occupy an area
The term effect is quite broad and can reasonably be applied to a spell or feat.
To my mind it makes it pretty easy to see that Electric Arc, Magic Missile, Chain Lightning, Swipe, etc are each one effect.
So for me the simplest rules answer is to treat them as one effect for the Summoner.
There are multiple ways of reading some powers. It might be possible to consider parts of a power as an effect. But I just think you are tying yourself in knots unnecessarily here.
I think "treating an effect as one effect for the Summoner" seems like a good yardstick, though sometimes this will involve two saving throws (take the worst) or two attack rolls (take the greater damage). That seems like as much penalty as the description intends, and any more would make Summoners untenable in many standard circumstances.