Abilities that are bad / meh for you, but good for your group?

[Temperans]

I think this is the right forum for this question.

Dusk Stalker Ranger (Fetchling racial archetype) has the very thematic ability to manipulate the shadows to mess with the enemy (-2 to AC and Reflex), but only for 1 round at a time. At first glance it seems like a great solo ranger ability that lets you get +2 to hit a few rounds per day vs any enemy, but then I noticed that their is no action cost on that ability. Because the ability is SU and the rules say unless specified things are standard action I assume the same is true here.

So my theory is that the ability to decrease AC and reflex saves is just icing on the cake and is meant to set up a Rogue for a really damaging turn. Because Ranger's have evasion, they can also help set up a good reflex based AoE given that lowering saves is relatively rare. But then again maybe its meant to be a way to have multiple rangers and still benefit from Hunter's Bond?

How would you use Shadow Bond ability is? Are there any other abilities that you think are better for the group than yourself? What do you all think about this type of abilities?

[Diego Rossi]

That ability doesn't deny dexterity, so it isn't especially useful for your rogue companion.

[zza ni]

anything that help demoralize the target or make it sicken. casters love penalty to saves, and to attacking them. (swashbuckler's 'Menacing Swordplay' deed for example).

anything that enhance aid another or work when you use it (halfling have a bunch of these as optional racial feats)

the gunslinger and swashbuckler deeds at level 7 that miss on purpose to flat foot\deny enemy his dex bonus until the start of his next turn
-wastes your standard action so somewhat bad for you and good for the team. as most likely you are the only one who won't get to benefit from the enemy's debuff.

[Diego Rossi]

Several Domain abilities. Those below are from the CRB, probably there are several others in other books.
Most last only 1 round, so the benefit for the cleric is minimal, or give allies a benefit that the cleric already has.

Unity (Su): At 8th level, whenever a spell or effect targets you and one or more allies within 30 feet, you can use this ability to allow your allies to use your saving throw against the effect in place of their own.

Touch of Good (Sp): You can touch a creature as a standard action, granting a sacred bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws equal to half your cleric level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Rebuke Death (Sp): You can touch a living creature as a standard action, healing it for 1d4 points of damage plus 1 for every two cleric levels you possess. You can only use this ability on a creature that is below 0 hit points. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Touch of Law (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, infusing it with the power of divine order and allowing it to treat all attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws for 1 round as if the natural d20 roll resulted in an 11. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Freedom’s Call (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of freedom for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. Allies within this aura are not affected by the confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, or shaken conditions. This aura only suppresses these effects, and they return once a creature leaves the aura or when the aura ends, if applicable. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Resistant Touch (Sp): As a standard action, you can touch an ally to grant him your resistance bonus for 1 minute. When you use this ability, you lose your resistance bonus granted by the Protection domain for 1 minute. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 +
your Wisdom modifier.

Resistant Touch (Sp): As a standard action, you can touch an ally to grant him your resistance bonus for 1 minute. When you use this ability, you lose your resistance bonus granted by the Protection domain for 1 minute. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Strength Surge (Sp): As a standard action, you can touch a creature to give it great strength. For 1 round, the target gains an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) to melee attacks, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skills, and Strength checks. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Battle Rage (Sp): You can touch a creature as a standard action to give it a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) for 1 round. You can do so a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

[Temperans]

Diego Rossi wrote:

That ability doesn't deny dexterity, so it isn't especially useful for your rogue companion.

I was thinking flanking and using that ability.

[Diego Rossi]

Temperans wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

That ability doesn't deny dexterity, so it isn't especially useful for your rogue companion.

I was thinking flanking and using that ability.

I thought that was your idea, but the ability gives a -2 to AC, what allows the sneak attack is the flanking.

All of us have the tendency to aggregate things as a whole, but that something causes us to misremember the game mechanics.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I want you to think about what that ability is doing: firstly, it affects any intelligent creature in or adjacent to the square the Dusk Stalker is affecting, and their range on the ability is 30'. That means that this is a ranged debuff possibly affecting multiple foes. Because this is a mind-affecting Fear effect that also requires Dim Light or Darkness around the square affected, those obstacles must be overcome as well.

If successfully used however, this ability delivers 1 round of a -2 AC and Ref save to ALL creatures affected, no save. Do you have ranged attackers or AoE users in your party? This ability is good. Do you routinely face hordes of weaker creatures, especially in areas of Dim Light or Darkness? This ability is good.

I wouldn't say this is an ability you want to use in adjacent melee with. You don't want the PC to be so close to the affected square that they are accidentally caught in the menacing shadows as well. You could however use this ability in conjunction with a Reach weapon to deliver Flanking as well as a debuff to AC on a particularly tanky foe to, say, a rogue or other PC with SA damage.

Overall I would say that Shadow Bond is exactly what your title suggests; an ability that doesn't help you at all but benefits your fellow PCs. On the right kind of build this could be exceptionally useful. Consider if your PC had the Helpful trait (not to be confused with Helpful Halfling, which is something different), a Reach weapon, Int 13, and also had Combat Expertise and Swift Aid by level 7.

This PC could use a Move action while holding their reach weapon, setting up a Flank, then Standard to deliver Shadow Bond and Swift to give their Flanking buddy +3 to attack. This now means your ally is +5 to attack on their first attack, +2 on all others, and for that round their enemy has -2 AC. I'd say a net +7 for one attack is pretty useful, especially when by level 7 you're starting to enter Rocket Tag territory.

There's lots of stuff that helps out the party but doesn't do much for you. Consider Grappling, Aid Another or the Intimidate skill; on their own and with little or no support from feats, class abilities and such, these are actions that you commit to in order to buff your allies or debuff your enemies. Arguably if you roll high with Intimidate, in future rounds you can also benefit from the condition you inflict on your enemy but initially it eats up YOUR standard so other folks aren't as likely to be hit and such.

Some Teamwork feats work this way too. Broken Wing Gambit for example hands off an AoO to your TW partner in exchange for you actually accepting a -2 penalty to AC. Without Paired Opportunists, this only benefits your TW ally. Covering Fire lets you use Aid Another from a distance. Extend the Bulwark hands half your Armor bonus to an adjacent Ally for 1 round while you lose your full Armor bonus to AC for that round.

I'm sure there's more stuff out there. Bottom line is, IME, characters built up around such selfless tactics are truly rare. For example, I haven't seen a straight up Cleric, vanilla or with an archetype, at my tables in years. 3/4 BAB, weak weapon options, a good majority of their spells are defensive in nature, and most of the Domain abilities are helpful to others, not necessarily the PC using them. Shockingly players don't seem to enjoy this type of character in my games...

[Belafon]

I actually love abilities that boost your party members even if it means you aren’t directly doing damage. One of my favorite characters ever was an evangelist (archetype) cleric with Greater Feint. Drop a ton of long-duration buffs on people at the start of the day, inspire courage, and then make an enemy lose their Dex versus all my allies.

The wizard void elemental school may have the best of these abilities: an enemy takes a penalty to AC and saves equal to half your caster level for one round. No save supernatural ability. Totally worth your standard action.

The one caveat is that these abilities get better as your party gets larger. Nowhere near as good with 3 PCs as 6.

[Derklord]

Temperans wrote:

Are there any other abilities that you think are better for the group than yourself?

Tons. Most group buffs, for example, as a martial profits much more from e.g. Haste than the Wizard casting it.

Temperans wrote:

What do you all think about this type of abilities?

I'm totally fine with such abilities - if it gets the job done, I couldn't care less about who actually rolls the damage dice. I know that the bonus attack from Haste that my character cast is really my character's damage.

What I dislike is people taking such abilities for the sole sake of taking such abilities. Nothing against a character that has a support focus, but "it's a team game" should never be your primary reasoning. It's basically an overcompensation for "I want to top the damage-meter" behaviour. A spell that helps the party members deal 100 damage isn't worse than a spell that lets you deal 100 damage... but it isn't better either! And a spell that helps your party members deal +50 damage is worse than a spell that makes you deal 100 damage, and you better have a damn good reasoning why your character isn't giving it their all in a life-and-death situation.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Why use helper actions instead of dealing damage on your own? Full party fringe benefits. Take grappling:

In my megadungeon game I've got 3 melee martial types. One of them is a u-monk that's really good at grappling. In a full attack action, the monk deals the most damage if all his flurry attacks hit, then the u-rogue is a very close second w/2 potential SA's but she has to be attacking into a flank to get them both, and finally the vanilla paladin is a distant third unless he's smiting.

The monk has said several times "why bother grappling if I'm throwing away MY damage in the round?" Well, for one, in a full-attack that means the rogue gets multiple SA's since the monk has feats that let him grapple and pin in the same round.

However he always forgets: if a foe is grappled, or grappled and pinned, this debuffs its AC, its potential actions for a round, and its effectiveness at using those actions. Sure, the foe will take less damage round after round but the PCs are then saving resources they need to spend to buff their attack bonuses, defenses, or healing after the fight.

You don't use grappling or Shadow Bond or some other abilities purely for a damage-to-damage replacement, you use them b/c by doing so you're handing out bonuses to EVERYONE in the party.

[Foeclan]

Insightful Advice does nothing for you, but being able to give everyone else in your party an all-day +2 to a skill is pretty nice.