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Some edition confusion here. Let's see if I can do better (it has been a while since I looked at Starfinder rules).
Without any additional feats or abilities: using two pistols, one in each hand, is for flavor only. You don't have an off-hand. Full Attack is -4/-4 no matter how many hands or weapons you use.
Multi-Weapon Fighting does what it says - reducing the penalty by 1. Normally to -3/-3.
There are some classes with features or abilities that change the base for Full Attack. Some add more attacks, some change the penalty applied, some do both. I don't remember all of them, but I know that there is Operative: Triple Attack and Quad Attack, Soldier: Soldier’s Onslaught, and Solarian: Flashing Strikes.
So a 13th level Operative with two pistols and Multi-Weapon Fighting would be making the -3/-3/-3/-3 attack routine.
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Without spending other resources, you fire two handguns at -4 -4 the same way anyone fires one big gun at -4 -4. Starfinder has so many multi armed species that keeping pathfinders one attack per hand paradigm would have overpowered the heck out of anyone with extra hands.
If you figure that means there is very little reason to fire two pistols instead of one big gun, you're right.
There have been archtypes and fighting styles to try to make Yosemite samming it up a thing, I don't think think they've succeeded very well. Its one of the few concepts that I rank as not really viable.
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Pretty much what Beithauptclan said. Doesn't matter how many weapons you have, your human with a single pistol gets the same number of attacks as a Kasatha with 4 pistols or a Skittermander with 6.
Soldiers can gain a 3rd attack at later levels, with a -6. Solarians can gain a 3rd attack at -6, if you are using melee attacks, they do gain an ability to change the penalty to -3 (For 2) and -5 (For 3). An Operative can make up to 4 attacks at a -4.
The only mistake is how you state how Multi weapon fighting works. It doesn't reduce the penalty by 1, it sets the penalty to -3. So a Solarian with 2 knives with the operative trait doesn't get to make his attacks at -2, since both his Flashing strike and the Multi weapon set the penalty to -3, rather then reduce the penalty.
The only mistake is how you state how Multi weapon fighting works. It doesn't reduce the penalty by 1, it sets the penalty to -3. So a Solarian with 2 knives with the operative trait doesn't get to make his attacks at -2, since both his Flashing strike and the Multi weapon set the penalty to -3, rather then reduce the penalty.
Incorrect. Page 160 of CRB. Also here: https://www.aonsrd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Multi-Weapon%20Fighting
Soldiers and Solarians have the Onslaught class ability that allows them to make three attacks at a base -6 modifier. Operative Triple/Quad attack use the normal -4 for all their attacks, base.LRStahl, for what I think you are trying to do, try 7 levels of Soldier (Pistol Dancer) with feat Multi-Weapon Fighting, the Feat Boost Multi-Weapon Strike, and the Gear Boost Laser Accuracy. Then take 13 levels of Operative. (Triple Attack would come at CL 15, Quad at 20, so has optimization problems, but at level 20 you would be making 4 attacks at -2 with small arms or operative weapons, effective -1 if using laser pistols. Note; it is rules debateable that Multi-Weapon Strike, being an Attack Action instead of a full round action, can be used with Trick Attack.)
About the only mechanical benefit for using two pistols, rather than one, with full attacks is being able to fire more shots before reloading.
However, there are a few corner cases that may be somewhat beneficial at higher level if you want to develop the character for it. One (expensive) example:
A character (probably full BAB) with two recoil stabilizer arms wielding two advanced uppercut SMGs with the conserving, spelthrower, trailblazer, and Ulrikka duster fusions firing amplified diatha rounds has several options. They can full attack as normal or they can activate a recoil stabilizer and fire one pistol in automatic mode (the recoil stabilizer allows critical hits, i.e. knockdown from the exploding ammunition, for automatic fire and the conserving fusion means only hits use ammo). The trailblazer fusion allows mostly normal use in/under water or in storms. The Ulrikka duster fusion is useful when attacking objects (doors, vehicles, etc.) or some constructs. The spellthrower fusion allows the casting of a 2nd-level spell from a spell gem.
Granted, a character has to invest a healthy portion of their wealth and probably will be about 12th-13th level, if following the "balanced approach" guidelines, to fully realize the concept.
Alternately, disintegration SMGs instead of uppercut SMGs would attack EAC and do acid damage. Fewer shots, however.
Fair enough, was remembering the modifier wrong. I think it was Far shot I was getting the set to, rather then reduce.
to the OP, unlike Pathfinder first edition, Starfinder changed the paradigm regarding how many attacks one could get.
It was very necessary since alien races could have many appendages and many kinds of natural attacks (in theory, not sure if we have a race with more than 2) and that needed to be balanced against those that don't.
The answer to that was to make a full attack only two attacks.
There are certain class abilities that change the number or reduce the penalties, or both but the class features that do it make it pretty clear how it works.
Ultimately, in Starfinder using multiple guns at the same time is ineffective.
I do wish there was an item that could help fulfill that imagery for people without having the cost be too crazy. Which is the main problem with multiple weapon builds, maintaining multiple weapons isn't possible if the weapons are at your level. And if you lower the weapon level it negatively impacts how much damage they do.
(in theory, not sure if we have a race with more than 2)
Kasathas are one of the base races, and have four arms. Skittermanders are a fairly popular race, and have six arms.
Ultimately, in Starfinder using multiple guns at the same time is ineffective.
I do wish there was an item that could help fulfill that imagery for people without having the cost be too crazy. Which is the main problem with multiple weapon builds, maintaining multiple weapons isn't possible if the weapons are at your level. And if you lower the weapon level it negatively impacts how much damage they do.
There are in fact feats and class options that make it feasible. (I outlined one path above in my previous post. There are many more.) You do have to accept that you are optimizing for that purpose, but what character build isn't optimized for a purpose or theme?
If you have infinite money just get extra arms, shoot people with a maleficient fusion weapon first (reaction to inflict curse on them), then follow up with a nasty save effect (whatever that might be) on your second shot. There, a two weapon set up that works (if they fail their save) 1-3 times per day at higher levels and only costs something like 70-80% of your wealth.
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(in theory, not sure if we have a race with more than 2)Kasathas are one of the base races, and have four arms. Skittermanders are a fairly popular race, and have six arms.
They have more than 2 arms, I was talking about natural attacks. Natural attacks and arms are not the same thing. Most arms don't have natural attacks.
There are in fact feats and class options that make it feasible. (I outlined one path above in my previous post. There are many more.) You do have to accept that you are optimizing for that purpose, but what character build isn't optimized for a purpose or theme?Ultimately, in Starfinder using multiple guns at the same time is ineffective.
I do wish there was an item that could help fulfill that imagery for people without having the cost be too crazy. Which is the main problem with multiple weapon builds, maintaining multiple weapons isn't possible if the weapons are at your level. And if you lower the weapon level it negatively impacts how much damage they do.
No, they don't. Not really.
Multiple weapon fighting feat reduces the attack penalty by 1. But in order to maintain multiple weapons you have to split your wealth. Assuming you are anything close to resembling wealth by level it will reduce your overall damage. Prior to level 10 it might not be too bad because weapon dice scaling doesn't hit too hard. Past level 10 weapon damage dice start to scale a lot and it isn't even close to viable at that point.
The Pistol Dancer style doesn't overcome this issue.
And as for combining it with Operative levels, I'm not sure if you think those abilities let you fire a single pistol multiple times but it doesn't.
Triple Attack and Quad Attack let you make 3 or4 attacks (total) as a full attack, whether your firing a single or multiple weapons. There is no synergy with multiple weapons.
There might be something out there that overcomes the cost of multiple weapons, or does actually make using multiple weapons mechanically beneficial enough to justify it but the options you listed don't really do it IMO. When I say ineffective, remember I'm comparing to just making a character using a single longarm and picking up obvious easy access choices. If you're not at least meeting, and really exceeding what can be done by an almost non-character investment build then pouring a bunch of money, class selections, feats, etc into making them only as effective as the rifle guy who spent nothing isn't a definition of "effective" that I was using.
It also doesn't help that ranged is a little weak compared to melee.
So if you're using less than optimal ranged, its considerably less optimal than melee.
And as for combining it with Operative levels, I'm not sure if you think those abilities let you fire a single pistol multiple times but it doesn't.Triple Attack and Quad Attack let you make 3 or4 attacks (total) as a full attack, whether your firing a single or multiple weapons. There is no synergy with multiple weapons.
Wanted to clarify something because I worded this terribly.
What I was trying to say is the Triple Attack And Quad Attack let you make 3 or 4 attacks in total, and the poster I was responded to may have been under the impression that it would let you shoot each small arm you had 3 or 4 times. Potentially allowing for a truly crazy number of attacks if you 2 or more small arms.
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I could invest a feat in Multi Attack to reduce my attack penalty by 1 with two expensive trash weapons, or I could buy a heavy gunner's harness to reduce my attack bonus by 2 with one expensive awesome weapon.
Easy choice.
A nanocyte can partially get around the cost issue with their gear array (or Manifold Array at 7th+ level) to use a normally acquired small arm and a small arm created using their nanites (or two different small arms created using nanites). However, ammunition will still need to be provided and the gear array weapons do not have any attached fusions.
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A nanocyte can partially get around the cost issue with their gear array (or Manifold Array at 7th+ level) to use a normally acquired small arm and a small arm created using their nanites (or two different small arms created using nanites). However, ammunition will still need to be provided and the gear array weapons do not have any attached fusions.
Compare that to a nanocyte making a long arm though?
The level 7 nanocyte can make their chosen long arm, probably a 2d6 weapon and spend no additional money. Or they can buy one small arm and create another. Level 7 small arms can also find a 2d6 weapon (as I mentioned before weapon scaling before level 10 isn't too bad).But certain higher level class options aside, everybody makes 2 attacks. And a majority of classes that let you make more attacks, will do so with longarm or small arm (although solarion is melee only unless you get a solar weapon).
So you buy a second weapon to get what? Allow use of Multi-weapon Fighting and get a +1 to attack? I'm sure I can find other ways to get a +1 to attack and spend a feat and money in better ways.
Ultimately, the fact that you don't get extra shots for the extra cost makes it really hard to justify.
Just to point out, if your using a Nanocyte to conjure a pistol, as its your character focus, wouldn't you just take Split Manifestation Knack?
When using your gear array to form an operative weapon or small arm, you can manifest a second copy of that weapon. This counts as only one array for determining the number of arrays you have active.
Page 14 for anyone who wants to read it in the book
Just to point out, if your using a Nanocyte to conjure a pistol, as its your character focus, wouldn't you just take Split Manifestation Knack?
When using your gear array to form an operative weapon or small arm, you can manifest a second copy of that weapon. This counts as only one array for determining the number of arrays you have active.
Page 14 for anyone who wants to read it in the book
Entirely possible, not that familiar with the nanocyte myself.
That does bring the cost down to one class feature selection, which is relatively low. But still you need to pickup Multiweapon fighting feat. And ultimately it doesn't let you do more, or provide more interesting options. It gets you a net +1 to attack to be otherwise the same as someone who didn't invest anything.
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I think the problem is efficacy when thinking about wielding and using multiple pistols in a turn. Cost, IMO is the least of the concerns.
If you are trying to shoot multiple times in a turn you are going to be full attacking. If you are full attacking you are at base -4/-4 (or have a greater minus if more attacks). Unless you are fine with a flurry of misses, something needs to be done about the penalties. Sharpshoot and Pistol Dancer can reduce the penalty by 1. The multi weapon feat can reduce it by another. Weapon Focus can effectively reduce it by yet another. At this point I'd assume you are a soldier. When deciding on a gear boost, I'd point you to either laser accuracy or bullet barrage. Laser accuracy is going to boost your attack bonus by another 1 which will help mitigate the greater penalties at higher levels. Bullet barrage will increase your static damage bonus per hit. Which, because pistols have lower damage dice and only get half your level to damage can really bring a pistols damage back in to significance. It is a tough choice.
I think that a multiple pistol wielding character can be viable. But I don't think it can be any bit near as effective as a basic longarm wielder. And an optimized longarm wielder can barely achieve the effectiveness of a basic melee.
If you want to build it, I think you should go for it! That said, come to terms with the fact that your combat contribution on a good day will be easily overshadowed by a melee ally on a mediocre day.
And that +1 to attack is more than negated by a longarm once they set up a bipod to take 2 off the multi attack penalty.
It's the using the bipod as a forward grip that makes it ridiculous. Why bother stabilizing it on a surface? So it can be Rambo'd with multi-weapon fighting with 2 arms?
At least Multi-weapon Fighting is more useful than Fusillade which needs 4 identical small arms.
The bipod isn't worded very well, but i think with either a forward grip or planting it on the ground you still need a move action to brace it, so it doesn't matter TOO much.