Seems to me this is a rare form of exorcism known only to those of The Six, or of The Wyrm, or of The Crone or whatever Bavmorda was. Point is, I don't think Willow did it and Graydon SEEMS like he's about Elora's age, maybe a little older. By the time he was as old as he was in his own flashback, Graydon wouldn't have Cherlindria or Rizel to save him so... was he saved by dark folk in his youth?
Was he ever actually cured at all? Was he prepped for this in the first place? Do you think he knows a ton of languages b/c he's ACTUALLY magical himself? Time will tell I suppose...
Could have been saved by fey or an artifact, or it is possible that given there's some forms of alchemy and ritual magic in the world that people with lesser magic ability but the right tools. Obviously whatever was done to him left him badly scarred, so it was either done by someone not fully expert, or someone dark as you say.
Knowledge of the languages seems to be part of his schooling.
I think it's likely Graydon was trained as a sorcerer, did something which was beyond him and got way out of control - scarred him, caused his brother to die, and he's left with lots of ranks in knowledge skills and spellcraft, and either no magic at all, or locked up too scared to use magic at all. But in the finale, he's going to do something magic to save the day.
With the flute and the endless knowledge, Graydon is clearly the party bard. (I mean, not literally, but just making the analogy). Elora is likely the one slated for any major magical miracles, although Graydon may have some lesser magic capacity. I can also seem him providing mystical assistance to her and/or sacrificing himself to enable some mystic juju. He's clearly on a redemptive path, and this is a Lucas work which follows archetypal hero's journey stuff pretty faithfully.
Busy week. Didn't get to watching it till today.
Yes, Cherlindrea's wand is a powerful Rod of Metamagic and/or makes spellcasting easier. That's always been the case.
I took it that the "perils of the Wildwood" was exaggerated lore and they didn't really have the "won't make you want to leave" effect. More that it was just dangerous because you'd either run into faeries or brownies (back in the day) or bone reavers (now). Not all rumors are true, not even in a fantasy tale.
Willow had a plan to escape with the help of Rool, which become unnecessary because meanwhile, Jade became embraced by the Bone Reavers as one of their own.
Truth plums seem to force you to tell the truth eventually, so while you can try to fight it, you will ultimately tell the truth. Kit does this as well when she's talking to Elora--tries to say something else but then can't resist blurting out the truth. It's a powerful suggestion effect.
I observed only one big disconnect, which was Bone Reavers brutally murdered awesome beard guy in episode 1 for seemingly no reason and any tragic backstory they have does not justify the fact that they appear to be brutal murderers who boil people's skin off. So the sudden portrayal of "look they dance and sing and aren't so bad!" seemed really weird to me.
Sorsha used to work closely with Kael--which everyone should know--and I suspect had her own reasons for not wanting Jade to know he was her father that I suspect are not so sinister (even if it was still wrong to lie to her).
The timing of that troll attack was deeply unfair.
I do not like the constant choices to use pop music in the soundtrack. It feels very jarring. The orchestral score is phenomenal and nothing should compete with it, IMO. Also that cover of Crimson and Clover was lame; if you have to use it, why not spring for Joan Jett's version?
I liked the various conversations everyone got to have and I liked that we got to learn more about Boorman.
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Have to admit I'm enjoying the show less and less each episode. Not that they're independently not good - they are, and fun to watch, but the show is all over the place in terms of tone. Sometimes it's dark and dangerous, other times it's so whimsical it looks like it wasn't even made for adults. When you have brownies being silly - that's just how fey are, and even then, they still can act to move things in the right direction and aren't hindered by being silly (though they can get into trouble because of it). The trolls though were just ridiculous. Having a leader who's more well spoken and educated is fine - even trolls can have a wizard and point of contact for the Crone, but this felt like a Saturday Night Live skit.
Also while I enjoyed Christian Slater's role, once he and Borman got together they suddenly turned into the 3 Stooges (minus 1). For an event as momentous as finding the Chimeran Cuirass (or at least a decoy/fake one), it was also weird we didn't see it put on and the key device used on it. That would have made it being a fake more impactful than just looking like some dirty rusty looking old armor.
Finally, the fights seem to have become less and less fun to watch, and more kid-friendly comical and bloodless. I'm not expecting gore, but maybe a spot of blood here and there? I was half expecting the big fight with the trolls to feature WWE moves and jumping from the top rope. Nothing wrong with WWE if you like it, but that's not the kind of fighting I was looking for (or what the first episode set the tone for).
Agree with the modern pop songs being a horrible choice. When they're simply over the credits, they're merely annoying, but when they use them in the episode, they're jarring and distracting.
Also while I enjoyed Christian Slater's role, once he and Borman got together they suddenly turned into the 3 Stooges (minus 1). For an event as momentous as finding the Chimeran Cuirass (or at least a decoy/fake one), it was also weird we didn't see it put on and the key device used on it. That would have made it being a fake more impactful than just looking like some dirty rusty looking old armor.
Allagash attempted to use the Lux on the Kymerian Cuirass, and it didn't work. He handed it to Boorman for Boorman to try, but Boorman didn't have a chance to do it before the end of the episode.
So it either is fake armor, or it will work when the time is right or with the right user.
I'm wondering if Kit really heard Madmartigan or it was some kind of trap. I am assuming the latter.
Although I was kind of glad she fell in the water. She was the one ignoring the danger and refusing to move. Got what she deserved and if the party had any sense they'd leave her behind. Even though the character's grown a bit, I can't recall a single good thing Kit's done the entire series, except finally (too late) revealing to Elora she saw the berry bush to give her a halfhearted pep talk. I know, I know, they're good people and they're heroes and that is why they will try to help her, but the entire scenario is her fault.
I am intrigued by what is going on with Airk (that is how you spell his name and I don't know why they are pronouncing it like "Erik").
I have answers to some of the other issues raised but I'm sensing y'all just want to kvetch so I'll leave you to it. (Mind I have my own issues with the show, some of which I've mentioned, but I'm not in the mood.)
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Also while I enjoyed Christian Slater's role, once he and Borman got together they suddenly turned into the 3 Stooges (minus 1). For an event as momentous as finding the Chimeran Cuirass (or at least a decoy/fake one), it was also weird we didn't see it put on and the key device used on it. That would have made it being a fake more impactful than just looking like some dirty rusty looking old armor.Allagash attempted to use the Lux on the Kymerian Cuirass, and it didn't work. He handed it to Boorman for Boorman to try, but Boorman didn't have a chance to do it before the end of the episode.
But my point was that Allagash attempted to use it but it was off camera. For 6 episodes in of tracking this down, I expected to see what happened when someone tried to activate it. Just was a weird choice IMO to not show it.
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Huh. I thought they did show him trying to use it. I remember seeing him with the Lux in one hand and the cuirass in the other and was trying to connect them. The lighting in the episode was also extremely dark, so perhaps he was trying to pet a kitten or something, and it just looked like something else.
This said, they definitely have made some extraordinarily weird editing decisions on this show. Other things happened off screen (like, indeed, Allagash initially fleeing with the Lux and the cuirass) that should not have. Key plot beats should be shown, not explained in dialogue. This has been happening throughout the series, and it's very strange. It feels like some of the best minds in fantasy film making started to make this, but then they gave up halfway through and gave it to a bunch of sophomore theater majors to finish it.
ETA: Out of curiosity, I started reading the credits for who's been directing and editing these episodes. Different team worked on these last couple episodes than the first two. The folks working on the first few episodes have other action and fantasy credits like His Dark Materials and Doctor Who. The folks working on the most recent episodes are accomplished in their fields but at a glance have never really worked on action or fantasy before; for example, the editor on this ep worked on the recent Starz Howard's End series from a few years ago which was very good, but is about a far cry from Willow as you can get. Likewise the director, very accomplished, but known for things like Call the Midwife. So both are lasered in on deep emotional character development and dialogue and seemingly have no idea what the f@&~ to do with action or how to weave it all together (because of course you want development and dialogue but you also need to show things actually happening). I'm not saying you can't direct/edit/cinematograph something you've never done before, but certainly some filmmakers have gifts for making things shine in some genres over others.
Original Willow had fairly contemporary (and sometimes silly) sounding dialogue ("I stole the baby while he was taking a peepee!"; "It puts hair on your chest"; "What the hell happened to you?"), and I think it's just a matter of it's its own world--it does not have to look or act like an Earth historical period and region (and most historians would argue that the vast majority of high fantasy stories do not resemble any actual historical period or region)--and people are talking in ways most audience members will understand. The same thing is happening in the series, except they are overusing and inconsistently using obvious real world slang (like "Chill out") (rather than broader contemporary rhythms of speech and turns of phrase) and it comes off as it sounding like old people writing a script they think will be appealing to the youth audience they want to be watching this show.
DQ, do you think it's all in service of subverting expectations?
Yes, but I don't know if the expectation they're playing with is that the MacGuffin isn't working because it needs to be worn by the right person, or if it isn't working because they don't have the real MacGuffin and the real one is still out there. Or as a third option, the Cuirass itself is a red herring and the real MacGuffin is the Lux by itself, it just needs to be activated properly, and there's going to be a "You had the power inside you all along, Dorothy," moment at an appropriate time.
And, I want to be clear, I think it's completely fine for all of that to be a mystery right now. I was just saying aloud that I wondered which it was.
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DQ, thanks for the research on directors/editors - that at least makes more sense about why the episodes have been so inconsistent.
As for the dialogue in the original Willow - I don't think your example there are too out of place. I know that there's a much older history to much scatalogical words than most people think - and while I don't know if peepee was around a thousand years ago, I don't automatically think it wasn't. The others don't strike me as too out of place either - though I couldn't find the origin/age of "put hair on your chest" with a quick search.
Agree that an example like "chill out" though seems out of place.
DQ, thanks for the research on directors/editors - that at least makes more sense about why the episodes have been so inconsistent.
As for the dialogue in the original Willow - I don't think your example there are too out of place. I know that there's a much older history to much scatalogical words than most people think - and while I don't know if peepee was around a thousand years ago, I don't automatically think it wasn't. The others don't strike me as too out of place either - though I couldn't find the origin/age of "put hair on your chest" with a quick search.
Agree that an example like "chill out" though seems out of place.
I think at the root, we do not disagree. I was not saying the original dialogue was out of place. Rather, that they chose an overall cadence and diction that was contemporary (actual etymology aside). The turns of phrase would not be out of place in a contemporary conversation at the time. In other words, you aren't adjusting your ear for something that sounds like, for example, Early Modern English (aka Shakespeare).
The new series sometimes takes this too far and adds slang that sounds forced and odd coming out of certain characters' mouths. Not so much because I think it sounds wrong for the setting, per se, but more that it sounds unintentionally like the "Hello fellow teenagers!" joke of the middle aged man pretending he is in high school (the particular pop culture reference this comes from is not coming to me).
So in short, in both there is an intent to have a contemporary pace to the dialogue. This is not by itself a bad thing. The show, however, overdoes it and is inconsistent, moreover, in the kind of language they use (one minute being extremely slangy and the next being very formal).
Wow, I liked this episode much better. I'm sure folks can find nits to pick but it felt like a much more cohesive story and apart from a few confusing moments the pacing and editing was much better. Really good mix of action and character development as well, and by the end I was really invested in Elora and yes, even, Kit and what they were doing.
I thought the training montage was really fun.
The contemporary music is still out of place but at least the choices fit better than in some previous episodes.
Graydon is confirmed to be a bard. ;)
We have now definitely seen the Lux inserted into the Cuirass and not working. I expect that Boorman has preemptively lampshaded it and it will indeed work at the right moment.
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Don't bite your tongue on my account. I certainly feel free to vent when I need to.
Re Willow's arc in the movie vs now:
Willow then and now has struggled to build confidence. When he was young, he knew the answer to the finger question was "My own finger." But self doubt prevented him from giving it. In his crowning moment of awesome, he used what he knew--his disappearing pig trick--to bluff the most powerful sorceress in the world. It was brilliant. But I can see Willow realistically plagued with doubt that he never actually proved himself as a sorcerer. In an ideal world where he had things go well I can see him building up higher self esteem and confidence. In the world he really lives in, where he has attained some skill at magic but still judges himself compared to others, where people laud him for using magic in a battle when he in reality he used cunning, and where he has been plagued for 17 years with visions that the child he risked everything to save may nonetheless still die by the hand of evil, I can see him still doubting himself and further feeling pressed to compete with his own legend. In other words, while he has grown wiser and more assertive, he still struggles with self esteem, and that feels fine and in character to me.
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I definitely enjoyed this episode better, but there were still hints of issue from the last few. My big burning question though (and this might be from a previous episode and I didn't notice) but how and when did Elora change from a blonde to redhead?
The bleaching/dye has disappeared bit by bit each time she uses magic. So like the first time she had just a little red strand of hair appear, and then she had a red streak, and then she had a larger chunk. After she cast the spell to free Kit from the orange water, her hair was entirely red.
I take it that as she embraces her identity and destiny as Elora Danan, she is shedding, literally and figuratively, the trappings of that which was used to hide who she was, both by herself and others.
ETA: I've been noticing it change after she uses magic and assuming it's a magical effect, but an alternate explanation is simply that it helps us mark time, by her hair growing out. They were supposed to be on the shattered sea a long time. Something to pay attention to if one does a rewatch.
Mark, I am not ignoring you, but I am getting the sense perhaps you identify a lot with Willow (I do, anyway, so maybe I'm projecting), and you're taking a lot of this quite personally. So I am not responding further not because I don't think you have worthwhile observations, but to agree or disagree means risking upsetting you, which I don't want to do.
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I wouldn't say you put me off, Mark. But what I'm getting from your tone is that you're putting yourself really close to the text, and if I just go off and get analytical I feel like I'm treating you like the text and that could go very wrong. Perhaps after we've both given things space and perhaps after the finale we can circle back and dive back in.
I will say that when Willow came out it was absolutely one of the most important things to me. I was utterly obsessed with it, watched it over and over, had the board game and novelization and other materials. To this day it is absolutely one of my top favorite movies.
I have some negative criticism for this show (as I expect has been evident from some of my posts), but I also love returning to the world and seeing the world lore be built. There are things I wish they did better, but I also feel there are things they did right. Moreover, I have tried to let my sense of wonder from when I was 12 watching this movie inform my reaction to it now, and let the part of me that just wants to see some fun fantasy set expectations, rather than let my 46 year old grumpy editorial self take the driver's seat. I feel like if this tv show would have come out right after the movie (when I was still a pre-teen) I would have loved every second of it. And I accept that while I am one of the target audiences as a fan of the original, I also accept that I am not the only person they are making the show for. They are making it for people like me who are 12+ year olds now and it is for them. Overall, despite my complaints, I am glad this series exists and think there are key things they did get right.
There are also things I have misgivings about but I am willing to see how the story ends before I pass judgement; Willow's character arc is one thing where I trust they are building toward something we just haven't gotten to yet so I am not going to get too upset about a story I don't know the end of yet.
Finally, if I felt they had gotten things seriously wrong, I would have stopped watching early on, so as to preserve my love of the movie without what happened in the show interfering with that. Moreover, even with any concerns I have about this show, it cannot take away the fact that Willow the movie exists. It cannot take away the memories I had as a child watching it and all my obsessive love that I had for it. It can't take away how inspired I was by it, and I won't let it. So Mark, whatever you decide about this show, even if you think it is the worst thing to ever happen to you in the history of the universe, please don't let it take away from you the happy memories you have of the movie. Especially since you can go back and watch the movie you love at any time and share it with the people you care about. Take good care of yourself and find things that make you happy.
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Well, unfortunately, the finale amped up the bad parts of the 2nd half of the season with lots of cringey and out of place modern dialogue (though to be fair, there were some really fun cool parts too like Elora and Kit alternating in their diplomacy efforts at the beginning) and inappropriate modern music.
I have to agree overall with Mark about how for a show titled Willow, it was very weird and off-putting how they sidelined him so much. Yes, it was clearly a torch passing show, but at the same time, he's the title character. It would be like if Star Wars Ep 4 was called Obi-Wan Kenobi, but he was less effective. In the end Willow did some cool things this episode, but I missed his best traits of cleverness and misdirection the whole season. It's not like I expected him to slight of hand Elora into his hidden pocket again, but some sort of clever strategy that wasn't just "I've got magic to fight with" would have been nice.
I was also disappointed with how lame to the point of barely being a threat the Crone's henchmen were this episode. In episode 1 they were badass scary threats, and I expected to see an epic throwdown involving them, instead of barely be reminded they were in the show. That continued the trend of the action scenes getting worse throughout the season I guess.
While I think there was some pacing and editing issues (which has been this show's primary problem IMO), I enjoyed the finale particular to how it showed where Elora and Kit's journey's culminated. I finally enjoyed watching Kit and I thought Elora's moments were really cool too.
Joel, I'm surprised you didn't remark on the final reveal of the cuirass's power since you'd been waiting for that.
I agree I was hoping for Willow's having a cleverer moment of triumph while I was watching, but then I realized perhaps where his misdirection was was in making the rest of the troupe believe they were on their own. To make sure they were willing and ready to support each other and not fall back on him or his magic knowledge (for whatever you feel about how his role developed in the series, they tended to always turn to him for what to do next). They needed to be able to decide to make the "leap of faith" for more reason than somebody told them it was the right thing to do. Further I expect he was waiting to show up later to catch the bad guys off guard to not account for another player. It's not as clever or in the moment as the pig trick, but it was still about subverting expectations. Could it have been done better or done more with? Sure. Does it show him thinking ahead and showing that part of his gift is not with magic per se but his intelligence and thoughtfulness? Yes.
I also agree the big bads were not used well, and the very final battle was too short and the person who was supposed to be the ultimate big bad felt not at all a threat or concern. Again this seems to boil down to people involved in this series who don't know how to work with this genre. Likewise we never got a lot of loose ends tied (that I expect we will not) like what exactly happened to Kaiya and various other factors. We were also sorely missing a fuller denouement.
BUT I really liked how all of the heroic characters worked, all of them got some crowning moment of awesome or another, and their interplay with one another was solid. The temptation scenes were interesting. The swordplay was fun. The visuals were good. I thought the music throughout the actual story was well scored and the one sort of contemporary song in the temptation sequence was slow and instrumentalized enough that it still fit.
Why is it called Willow? A) because the movie was and we want to be clear it's the same world to casual viewers, and B) Because all that happens builds off his legacy. It is not because he is the main character per se (and the original movie also relied heavily on ensemble dynamics despite his being primary protagonist), but nothing would be happening without him. I really refuse to have an issue with it, and of all the nits to pick it's the one I'm least convinced by or impressed with.
The ending song made no sense but I'm not deducting points because it's still one of the best guitar riffs ever played and I will never be mad at someone for making me hear it.
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Joel, I'm surprised you didn't remark on the final reveal of the cuirass's power since you'd been waiting for that.
Yeah, I got caught up in other things and didn't post about the Cuirass at all. I thought that the whole "oh, didn't work for me, so it might just work for you" was pretty dumb, not that items like that can't or shouldn't exist, but nothing in the backstory of the cuirass suggested that, and why would Borman just decide it out of nowhere? Seems like a dialogue scene around the campfire would have been a better transition to get to that conclusion, than just "well, see if you can use it".
Also, while it was cool once finally in use I guess, I thought it was a bit too "iron man" in how it looked. I'd have rather it stayed just a cuirass, maybe get cleaned up and shiny/glowy, and then use magical shields to block attacks, and look a lot more magical than technological/superhero. Relatively minor nitpick, but continued the overall trend of the show to mix modern sensibilities into a fantasy story.
I enjoyed watching the "Making of" documentary they put up for this show. Lots of good behind the scenes shots, and an amusing running gag about Warwick Davis being full of himself (which of course is not actually the case).
If you're determined to be grumpy about this show, I wouldn't bother watching, but if you like behind the scenes stuff and the like, I thought it was fun.
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I liked the making of documentary also, and thought the ongoing focus on Warwick's central importance to the show (it's named for his character of course) was especially funny after the discussion on this thread regarding the relative lack of importance Willow actually had in the show bearing his name.
So some good news on this. Not Cancelled but...
It sounds like the script for season 2 is gonna take a bit, so the Actors have been released from contract so they can get other jobs while the script is being worked on. No clear idea on when season 2 will happen though.
I'd imagine 2025...
More time to adjust--and film, eventually, outside of pandemic restrictions, which I understand impacted the first season a good deal--points I hope to care taken to get things more balanced and right for the next season. I hope the actors are able to return when things are ready... most of the jankiness present in the first season did not have to do with their performances.
If they weren't planning to do more at all, I expect by now they simply would have announced the cancellation. Would be simpler--and cheaper--for all concerned. It'd be silly for them to say it's not cancelled if it is, especially given the mixed reactions to it. It's not like they're trying to evade hordes of angry fans by playing coy (the original movie is also a cult classic--a certain group of people adored it, but it was not a broad success, so the fanbase was never that big).
This article suggests they've already got a script on the books (with a note that Mims is in more of it, so if they do make it, yay for that). The showrunner noted that in general "production of streaming shows is slowing down across the entire industry," which ties into what Joel says above.
I'm not holding my breath, mind. We'll see!
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Well this doesn't bode well. Rumour is that Willow is among several "low performing" shows that are being pulled from the service at the end of May
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Sauce?
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It's by far the highest profile show on the list - which is a strong hint that viewership was way lower than most thought.
I'm finishing up the MPower documentary series before it goes, but was really shocked to see the Voices Rising Music of Wakanda documentary series on the list. That was fantastic.
Sauce?Couple of different news articles
Here and Here
Thanks. Your second link shares a tweet from a writer that shines a potential light on some darker side of things:
Before you say tax-write off: these shows have already been released and so can't be a write-off. And in the case of Willow, they own the property outright. The only conclusion is that this is to get out of paying residuals. During a strike.
Residuals go to writers. So that this isn't just cost-savings in the post-pandemic streaming slump, it's also to avoid paying writers where they can get away with it, while writers already aren't working because of the strike (and their demands are not unreasonable). Yuck. Just... ugh.
As for this likely confirming that the Willow series for now* has no future, this is disappointing but not surprising. It was a niche series based on a cult-classic (i.e., the original body of fans, of which I am one, is passionate but extremely small) that did poorly at the box office. Its production was severely hindered by the pandemic, and its viewership was hindered by the pandemic lifting... and that's before we get into shaky quality issues (which also in part go back to the production being affected by the pandemic, and in part IMO go to selecting the wrong directors for certain episodes).
What sucks is that there is no plan for physical storage release, e.g., blu-ray/DVD. I know the world is pushing toward streaming only, but a young person recently said to me "physical media is coming back" -- in part to avoid technical difficulties and contend with streaming platforms getting more draconian in policy. Unfortunately, if people want to see it again... well, this just creates opportunities for pirates. And I f~&&ing hate pirates and piracy, but this among many other reasons is why they exist.
* The only reason I put "for now" is because I frankly never expected to see ANYTHING happen with the Willow movie ever again given the original flopped commercially, so even having this was a pleasant surprise (even if the series wasn't as good as I'd've liked it to be, and there was still a lot I enjoyed in it). So the optimistic side of me says sometimes lightning strikes twice... but fear not, I shall keep my expectations low.
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The residuals issue is also because of the method streamers pay residuals. To avoid paying a lot, they pay a flat residual per movie or TV season per month. This means for popular shows they don't have to pay a lot, regardless of how many people stream it. On the flip side, for shows which aren't very popular, if they don't get a certain amount of streams, it's not worth paying that flat fee to keep it on air. If the WGA strike successfully changes the streaming residual methodology to be $X per 1000 streams or something based on actual number of people watching (in buckets, tiers, whatever) then this oddity of low watched shows being pulled to save money won't happen anymore. The residuals will just be low due to low viewership, while writers who work on huge hits will get a fair share of the wealth from the success.
So go WGA!