I'm not even CLOSE to pessimistic. I think this will be great. Even better than the Lord of the Rings or Fire and Blood.
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Holy cow!!! I was SO obsessed with this movie when I was a kid.
Looks really interesting, it's nice to be excited about something on D+ that isn't Marvel. My only hope is that it isn't based on the awful sequel novel that was weirdly excessively grimdark but it doesn't seem like it is so that's good.
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My only hope is that it isn't based on the awful sequel novel that was weirdly excessively grimdark but it doesn't seem like it is so that's good.
Indeed. I remember reading at least the first two books. They were….not very good. In my defense, I was 20-something years old, and so quite foolish.
I'm noticing a distinct lack of Val Kilmer in the IMDB full cast list despite the statement all over Google that Madmartigan will be a "major figure" in the series. The article I'm linking seems to suggest nebulous plans to include Mr Kilmer in the future of the series.
Fingers crossed this happens. I'm a fan of his work and the character in the movie. I never read the books so perhaps I have some catching up to do. Bottom line, bring back the prototype of Valeros!
Val Kilmer's had some major health issues the last few years, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's not able to act any speaking lines. He had throat cancer which necessitates a voice box to speak (according to what I just read on Wikipedia). It looks like he has creative input in the series, and he may get a cameo or something (they have been working on digitally recreating his voice), but he may not have a major acting role.
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I'm noticing a distinct lack of Val Kilmer in the IMDB full cast list despite the statement all over Google that Madmartigan will be a "major figure" in the series. The article I'm linking seems to suggest nebulous plans to include Mr Kilmer in the future of the series.
Fingers crossed this happens. I'm a fan of his work and the character in the movie. I never read the books so perhaps I have some catching up to do. Bottom line, bring back the prototype of Valeros!
From the article you linked:
However, the first season of the new series won't see Val Kilmer's beloved character Madmartigan return to the fold, but that doesn't mean his fingerprints aren't all over the story. According to the creative team behind the series, Madmartigan is a major factor in the series, and Kilmer will be the only actor to play him if he ever does appear on-screen again.
It sounds very definitively like we will NOT see Madmartigan this season, but that the character's legacy will be extremely visible. It also sounds like they have no plans to recast him, so either if the series continues beyond one season we may see him if Val Kilmer's health improves, or otherwise he will be mentioned but not seen.
I do love and remember Madmartigan fondly and am a fan of Val Kilmer (I'm not sure who I had a bigger crush on back then, him or Joanne Whalley). I pray he recovers and does whatever is best for his health. It sounds like even if he can't return, his impact on the world will not be minimal.
I think Val might get the same kind of thing as Abba, aka digitial avatar and voice dubbed lines.
Also I read the sequel series. It wasn't great, I agree. I don't think though, they are going down that road, based solely on what I saw in the trailer.
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I do love and remember Madmartigan fondly and am a fan of Val Kilmer (I'm not sure who I had a bigger crush on back then, him or Joanne Whalley).
It turns out they had a crush on each other!
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Also, for shows which haven't come out yet, IMDB is often incomplete, since they only have the casting which has been announced. If Val has a cameo they're not talking about ahead of time, it won't be in IMDB until pretty close to the air date.
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I remember reading at least the first two books. They were….not very good. In my defense, I was 20-something years old, and so quite foolish.
There were 3 books written by Chris Claremont (writer of X-Men) based on George Lucas's notes for a planned sequel.
Shadow Moon, Shadow Dawn and Shadow Star are the books in the series.I also only read the first two books so I don't know how it turned out.
I didn't even get far into the first one...Mostly because it felt too dark.
Which is weird considering I enjoy Claremont's work generally.
Wow I am glad I am not the only one who felt that way. And yeah, like JoelF I only read the first one and was so disappointed never looked out for the rest. It was very strange, it indeed felt nothing like the movie itself, took everything that was fun away from it, and really just felt like a different story someone slapped the series name on for hopes that licensing would bring more money. It's the kind of thing that maybe indeed would have been a decent independent fantasy series, but not as a sequel to Willow. Likewise, yeah, Claremont is a great writer but he could have just done it for the money. Every writer needs to eat.
Writers do need money to afford living. And total agreement with DQ that it felt NOTHING like the Willow movie. More like some other fantasy series.
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Full trailer released today at D23. Looks great, I can't wait.
That's what Kilmer did in Maverick, actually.
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Previous reporting on the show has said Val Kilmer is definitely not going to be in it, but the series will definitely feel the presence of Madmartigan through legacy.
Also loved that we saw that one ghost image of Fin Raziel. Such a cool character and played by a great actress (Patricia Hayes, who died in 1998). Seems like all characters who were instrumental to the original I would hope get their props. Including of course the deliciously evil Bavmorda. (Not that we would see her. She was killed in the original and the actress Jean Marsh is I believe not working since she had a stroke a few years ago.).
I'm so happy to see Sorscha! So hard to put into words how much I loved that character and how much she meant to me when I was a kid.
Warwick Davis seems to have picked up where he left off, so glad to see him get this chance to play Willow and in what looks like a kicking adventure.
And I had mixed feelings about the cutesiness of the brownies in the original, but it was still nice to see Franjean again. :)
New cast looks cool too (looks like it includes that gal who played Karli in Falcon and the Winter Soldier). Is the one sort of centrally focused-upon girl supposed to be Elora?
DQ,
No it's actually Sorscha's daughter. She's trying to find her brother. So yeah. Karli's actress is a knight in training and her best friend.
Ah yes, read the cast list now. Thanks. I had wondered since Sorsha and Madmartigan had adopted her at the end of the movie.
So where's Elora, is she just ruling the land in the background, or I wonder if her absence is part of the plot? I realize in the original film she was largely just a living MacGuffin, but the whole point is she was supposed to be the next queen and usher in an era and peace, so wondering what happened there.
No idea but I'm sure the series will address this, DQ. If only because the fandom demands answers.
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Watched the first episode (will catch the 2nd one tonight) and enjoyed it a lot. Kid friendly, but not kid focused, light tone, but has some real threat and ominous villains, and while a few of the next generation of characters are naïve and sheltered and full of themselves, they're called out as being so, and look like they'll quickly be learning. A lot of fun to watch, and it's a needed fantasy niche that hasn't been filled very well lately, with things skewing more dark and adult with the Witcher, Game of Thrones, and even Wheel of Time and Rings of Power (though they're a lot closer to Willow than the others).
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I was wired from work so I stayed up late and watched both.
I love how it deeply ties to the original movie and the visuals are right (Tir Asleen looks exactly the same). Lots of easter eggs/references to the movie if you're like me and may have watched the original 8,000 times on your VCR copy when you were 12.
And you're right on, Joel--it's straight up adventure fantasy which is actually refreshing. And it's GOOD adventure fantasy. It shows you don't have to make it edgy to make it interesting.
ALso, You can start writing up the questing party's character sheets as soon as they get going, and I like that. ;)
I absolutely ADORE the kitchen maid. At first I was like, "Why the heck is she the most likable character?" And later I understood. Easter egg: her name Brunhilde was the name Madmartigan took
Kit is insufferable. I'm sure she is intended to grow and is very much designed to be both her parents' child in stubbornness, but while they set her up with sympathetic circumstances, I can't think of a single good character trait she has to make me tolerate her flaws. She seems to be a bad friend, a bad sister, and a short-sighted fool. Still it's early days and I expect she is intended to grow.
Other characters are fun. Love Boorman. He's clearly the Madmartigan expy but also has his own spice. I liked Airk (who is named for the general of the knights of Galladorn in the movie) so it sucks he's the damsel in distress. But I expect we'll see him soon.
And Sorsha! She's still amazing. :) DOn't think we'll see her much outside the opening (Joanne Whalley is credited as "guest starring"), but it was good to see her. (That moment where was like, "You think your mother's unfair, you should have met mine..." was chilling. Somehow she actually looked like Jean Marsh for a minute.)
I like the sounds of all this.
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There's SOME edginess. ** spoiler omitted **
I wish Val Kilmer could've reprised his role and I wish him the best of health. So far my favorite character is Boorman for obvious reasons, but Mims for nostalgia. As soon as she came on screen I couldn't stop smiling!
I wonder if they'll loop in some Brownies or other supernatural types as stand ins? Also seeing Flash Thompson as Graydon was like perfect casting IMO. I've been watching too much Marvel streaming stuff though, kept waiting for Jade to use her super serum strength or something.
Anyway, this is a cool fun series for now, excited to see where it goes.
To be fair, there were some dark bits in the movie too. The opening where the midwife is hunted down... the eborsisk transformation... (fun fact: I learned that the two headed monster was named for Ebert and Siskel...).
Mims was a delight! The actress is apparently Warwick's actual daughter.
Per the trailer, the brownies are supposed to appear--Franjean and Rool specifically as well as the race as a whole.
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Reading the bio on Annabelle Davis, her parents Warrick and Samantha met on the set of Willow.
Samantha was a background extra in Willow's village.
So, Willow produce 2 marriages with kids who have become actors.
I'm loving all this.
I am deeply, deeply disappointed in
The death of Hubert and Anne. Both for adding to the dead lesbian trope and because I would watch an entire series about them.
They did all that work to make the characters that likeable and for what? Not even sure of the point of the scene except to make me instantly fall in love and then break my heart.
In other, possibly related news, I'm trying to keep track of the "Races" of this world, like the Nelwyns, Daikini, Brownies, etc.
We meet in this episodes a subrace of Daikini, the Forest Daikini, or "Forest Daiks" for short.
They trade their extra bonus feat for proficiency in any one martial weapon, and gain a +2 to all skills when in woodland terrain. They are known for sensible dress, and a fondness for mushrooms, and have a vocabulary reflecting a well-read background despite their preference for living in the wilderness.
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Willow's magic hurting him,
I agree with you on the confusing aspect overall in this episode. On reflection the editing seemed very sloppy. But...
I just re-watched the movie, and the movie makes clear that magic hurts. So they were actually being very consistent with the worldbuild there. In the movie, Willow always cringed in pain after he tried to transform Raziel, and he pretended to cringe in pain when he did his pig trick to fool Bavmorda, to help sell that he had just done real magic.
While you don't see a practiced sorceress like Bavmorda cringing in pain after some of her spells, you see her grow visibly aged and drained as she works the ritual to exile Elora. Likewise Raziel begins to look drained as she fights Bavmorda, and there's a point in that fight where both of them are so exhausted they've resorted to fist fighting because they can't sustain any further magical energy. Clearly magic draws on your personal life force.
Part of the specialness of Elora appears to be that she is, somewhere, innately magic, so she is not experiencing pain after she uses magic.
D Quakenator, I'd watch the forest women show too. Frankly those were the most interesting, and confusing moments in the ep for me. I kept waiting for some reveal, like they were secretly the brownies in disguise, or that they'd been affected by "good" magic ages ago the way that Ballantine and the other guards are affected by the "bad." As of the end of the ep however, they were a minor exposition delivery service and honestly seem to represent a pretty deplorable trope.
Agreed. At first it almost seemed sinister--why were these women alone in the spooky woods? How did they get there seemingly nowhere near anything else? And they were behaving so strangely, and I did think at first they were some kind of fey situation. They seemed not surprised to see a traveler in what seemed to be a place no traveler would go into. It felt like a trap. I've read some reactions online that suggests it was, something to shake Elora, make her doubt herself to see people dying for her, but that could have been done some other way. Hell, just Silas's death could have been sufficient without any tricks. The showrunners seem eager to raise the stakes, but I've grown a distaste for gratuitous death in stories. It's not wrong but I didn't like how it was handled here.
Ron Howard still has his name on this. I hope this isn't a "last season of Arrested Development" situation. Time will tell I suppose.
I know absolutely nothing about "Arrested Development," but Ron Howard directed the movie and I personally have little reason to doubt him. I trust his intent here as a producer. But I understand he did not direct these first few episodes, and this particular episode seems badly directed, badly edited, or both.
Which is a shame because I overall like most of the characters (except Kit) and like how they are expanding the world lore.
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Yeah, I thought the entire forest encounter was weird. Even the "hey wait, you are running to us and clearly distraught and asking for help about men chasing you down, and we're going to mock you about that, and force you to waste a ton of time explaining everything in immense detail (at least 2.5 episodes of this show we're in worth) before coming to the conclusion that yes, in fact, dangerous armed killers are pursuing you, and we'll finally decide to help, but at the same time, we'll ignore all the detail you just gave us about how dangerous they are."
I was expecting the entire time for them to turn out to be some sort of witches in the woods, who want to cook and eat Elora, like the Gingerbread House Witch from fairy tales.
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Mark I think your summary is pretty good, except my sense was that Raziel and Cherlindrea erected the barrier because they thought it was a good idea. I may have missed some dialogue, but I didn't think it was at Sorsha's insistence or that she forced them to burn themselves out doing it (I don't see how she could have; she has no control over Cherlindrea in particular and I can't see Raziel doing anything she thought was a bad idea). Fin Raziel was pretty damn old and also very wounded by her fight with Bavmorda and it's not shocking she gave out erecting the barrier (and may have wanted to go that way).
Also, the dialogue seems to have suggested the barrier did a lot to keep a lot of harm away from Tir Asleen for a long time and that life beyond the barrier is much more dangerous (it keeps those raiders out, etc.). The idea is the Gales are so powerful they were able to bypass it (and/or over time, the barrier has weakened). It was working. But the real folly is by hiding within the barrier, forces of darkness were able to build elsewhere unchecked. Also one that is nonetheless understandable and a good seed for the story.
I also missed where anyone said Sorsha and Madmartigan had feuded. I do remember dialogue where Sorsha said, "I sent Madmartigan to look for the Kymerian cuirass" and saying she feared she sent him to his death. The value of the cuirass remains to be seen but it's clearly an important McGuffin one way or the other.
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I think the kids grew up thinking that Madmartigan left on his own and abandoned the family. In part because Sorsha sent him in secret and either encouraged or at least didn't discourage the rumors that he left cause he couldn't stay put and needed adventure. so there's the common perception that he just left, after a fight, and the truth that she sent him for the cuirass, which only she and a few others know.
I think the kids grew up thinking that Madmartigan left on his own and abandoned the family. In part because Sorsha sent him in secret and either encouraged or at least didn't discourage the rumors that he left cause he couldn't stay put and needed adventure. so there's the common perception that he just left, after a fight, and the truth that she sent him for the cuirass, which only she and a few others know.
I think you're right. The issue is different perceptions of the situation because of a desire for secrecy.
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Man, you just really want to be pissed off at Sorsha, don't you? What'd she do to you, kick you in the face? ;) ((<-- movie reference))
I don't know about the marriage increasing the supernatural protection, but the union would unite the nations of Galladorn and Tir Asleen, and combine their military might. The Knights of Galladorn were badasses in the movie and continue to have that reputation. The warriors of Tir Asleen were also supposed to be pretty good until Bavmorda turned them all to stone, but I expect Sorsha raised a new army and used her own prowess to make them all pretty good at fighting. Uniting the kingdoms--or reuniting them, as I got the sense they were once one nation that split--would increase their (mundane) might and resources, including intelligence about movements of common enemies.
I adore Sorsha. I also recognize she's a soldier and not a magic user, and while savvy, not infinitely wise or brilliant. She's a former abused child who's good at sword. She doesn't always show the best judgment, and tends to be hotheaded. And I honestly have no idea what else she could have done or what, given her characteristics, she would have thought to do. My sense is while magic where it exists in this world is extremely powerful, but extremely rare. The ability to master magic seems to be an extremely rare talent (Willow was the only one in the whole Nelwyn village the High Aldwin saw any potential in, and Willow still struggled a great deal to learn even when he had Cherlindrea's wand to help). Something like one in 10,000 or even 100,000 might be able to use magic at all is my sense. Maybe even fewer. ((Total speculation, but Bavmorda may have also killed any potential magic users and their lineages who might have threatened her.)) Likewise magical artifacts are powerful but few and far between. So yeah, work with the few individuals she knew to cast as powerful a ward as possible and find one of those artifacts for future seems like a good as plan as any. Hide also makes sense, and she may well have intentionally tried to prevent Elora from using magic so mystical senses couldn't be aware of her. Given Elora wasn't actually pinpointed until she started using magic may even not have been a coincidence (while Ballantine was probably tracking them mostly through mundane means, it is awfully convenient that he pinpoints her exact location when she's alone trying to cast the spell).
Other things she was doing over the last 17 years was raise her children and run a kingdom, but eh, it's not like those take a lot of time, right?
What else do you think, using the worldbuild that we are aware of and the fact that she has no known magical capability whatsoever, she should have done? (This is an actual question, not a rhetorical one. I may have missed something.)
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And I'm sorry if I'm coming across as unnecessarily combative, but I admit I am struggling to follow you here.
How could the raiders, presuming they are even capable of negotiation and aren't just crazed murder junkies who wear other people's skulls for helmets, offer more protection than the armies of Tir Asleen and Galladorn, particularly mystical protection? (Come to think of it Sorsha probably drafted any surviving soldiers of Nockmaar into service of Tir Asleen. Manpower wasn't her problem. The problem is manpower is nearly pointless when some of your enemies have etherealness and flight and are capable of eventually turning the manpower you have into mind-controlled zombies).
Were Willow and Sorsha close friends? Allies by the end of the movie, and clearly Sorsha has some admiration for him despite her harsh words to him in the flashbacks. But they barely knew each other, and Sorsha in the movie is shown to have the same prejudices against Nelwyns many Daikini do and think them ineffectual (she calls him Peck and clearly seems to underestimate him repeatedly in the film and in the show). She doesn't seem to believe that he is capable of great magic--after all, he beat Bavmorda with sleight of hand, not real magic. Her flaw is that she underestimates him (much like her mother). That seems to me a realistic flaw well grounded in the lore.
She also did heed Willow's warnings nonetheless, just not in the way he wanted her to. I think she just wasn't capable of knowing exactly what form the enemy would come in, and doesn't have the mystical capability to know or to stop it --and her attempt to gain that capability was foiled when Madmartigan disappeared on his quest and Boarman returned apparently in disgrace enough that he had to be imprisoned.
Meanwhile Willow gave up and became High Aldwin because he wanted his happy home life. That's also in character.
The impression we get of Sorsha is a lone, reclusive queen keeping extremely close council and hiding things from her own kids, taken by surprise by the 3 bad guys, having no understanding what kind of dark magic to expect, and perpetuating the distance SHE made between Tir Asleen and Willow.
This is correct (except I believe it's one bad guy, the Crone, and her various mystical servants). I just don't follow why she should have behaved any differently. Would it be better if she had? Yes. Is she behaving out of character or beneath what she is capable of? Personally, I don't think so. That's why there's a crisis that needs solving, because she, a reformed villain soldier who has no mystic capability, failed. Not to get all meta about it, but if she was capable of dealing with it effectively, we wouldn't have the series.
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Ok... so I rewatched the movie last night as well as Ep 1 and 2 and I think I'm less confused now.
Mark, I always appreciate you're willing to dive into things and discuss them at length. I miss the days of the internet when that was the norm on message boards and newsgroups. And that we can agree and disagree without it being a full on flamewar.
Oh, and one little thing about magic and its effects on casters in the movie: when Willow is FIRST trying to cure Rizel, she says to him "beginners often feel a little pain" as she's urging him to concentrate. MAYBE there's some kind of fatigue that affects casters, but this line seems to indicate that only novices feel it.
If both the movie and show are entirely consistent, and there's no mechanical difference between them, is this supposed to indicate that, since Willow still feels drained all these years later, Willow is STILL just a beginner?
While the second paragraph is an interesting idea... regardless of what Raziel says, she and Bavmorda also look drained to hell during their magic fight and Bavmorda is clearly drained from performing the ritual. They may not show pain the way Willow does. So it seems to me that what he says--that magic drains out of you--is universally true, or Bavmorda wouldn't have looked so messed up during the ritual.
But does Willow feel the pain more than others/has he ever gotten only to a certain point of mastery? Possibly. I expect that will unfold if it is a plot point and not a continuity error. Certainly he has hidden that he did not win the day with magic but trickery. While it's actually a great heroic moment, it's not the one he wanted, and clearly they are building up around the deception for some reason.
I thought this episode was really interesting. Loved the effects and the atmosphere at Nockmaar. It seemed like the visions people were seeing weren't just illusions but like time was bleeding into itself, people could see into the past and vice versa (Elora's mother seeing her). I wonder if the "I see her..." line was actually something recorded in the original that got cut and they used it. The character development was pretty good and I'm glad Kit is finally getting a little more well-roundedness and isn't just insufferable.
Not sure why they are pitching Graydon as a love interest for Elora, the whole reason she was determined to go was because she was in love with Airk. It seems weird to make her so fickle.
Apropos of nothing, I found it really weird as an amateur herbalist and person who is fascinated by medical history that the one ingredient they didn't have was essence of nightshade. That has been a pretty common plant-based medical compound in the real world for ages as well as of course a potent poison, so it seemed weird that the very well stocked alchemy lab wouldn't have it. But that's probably a nitpick not worth getting hung up on.
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Bavmorda was already drained by the ritual before Raziel, Willow, and Sorsha showed up to fight her. She's all pale and veiny and far more wrinkled than she looks in previous scenes. I also recall watching a making of where they were specifically pointing out that the ritual was taking something from Bavmorda, that she was basically willing to risk everything to exile Elora. (But that was a long time ago so take it with a grain of salt.) Compare this picture to this one. This is purely the effect of the ritual, not her being injured by Raziel. (Sorry, based on the evidence of my eyes and ears, I am going to die on the hill that magic in general drains you in this world, even if a practiced sorcerer seems less phased by it, until something definitive shows up to prove otherwise.)
Yes, there's a lot of suspicion being thrown around. Everyone has their demons to fight. Not sure if it's a red herring per se or making us worry any one of the group could be manipulated.
Looks like Graydon was actually similarly afflicted when he was young, and the scarring on his chest was the result of that being cast out of him. I don't think Elora ate his "sin" so much as extracted the infected supernatural essence and purified it.
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I think it's likely Graydon was trained as a sorcerer, did something which was beyond him and got way out of control - scarred him, caused his brother to die, and he's left with lots of ranks in knowledge skills and spellcraft, and either no magic at all, or locked up too scared to use magic at all. But in the finale, he's going to do something magic to save the day.