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Background: I am currently running a Pathfinder (1e) game set in Paris, France during the September Massacres of the French Revolution. The game is a bit Bloodborne-esque, so Gothic Horror meets Mythos Horror.
The Big Bad is a worshiper of Hastur who has been incorporating sections of the play The King in Yellow into revolutionary pamphlets and spreading them throughout the city, causing the people of Paris to become enraged ~ and eventually some start turning into monsters (Mythos Ghouls, Werewolves, Dopplegangers, Vampires, etc).
Anyway, the PCs have started operating in the city, trying to rescue certain individuals from the violence and investigate what is going on.
Thus far, no one has thought to look at the propaganda pamphlets more closely. One of the PCs has Detect Alignment as a class feature.
So, before the PCs actually thinks to use that ability on the pamphlets, I wanted to ask... does anyone know if the play 'The King in Yellow' detects as evil?
And, if so, would the entire pamphlet detect as evil, or just the text taken from that play?
Even if no such rule exists and the decision is mine, I would be curious to hear some opinions on the matter.
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Does the pamphlet have any magical properties? If not, it shouldn't detect as evil, but if it had some magical affects, like for example the Necronomicon and Book of the Damned, it would detect as evil.
Basically, a cleric's mundane (un)holy book won't detect, but a special (even non-artifact) magical (un)holy scripture would detect.
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Does the pamphlet have any magical properties? If not, it shouldn't detect as evil, but if it had some magical affects, like for example the Necronomicon and Book of the Damned, it would detect as evil.
Basically, a cleric's mundane (un)holy book won't detect, but a special (even non-artifact) magical (un)holy scripture would detect.
Fair. How then would you interpret this bit of lore (Copy/pasted from the Pathfinder Wiki on Hastur):
Unholy text
The King in Yellow stands singularly in its importance to Hastur's cult. Ostensibly a simple dramatisation of Yhtill's final days, those who read The King in Yellow expose themselves to Hastur's influence, and when the play is performed, the city that hosts it will be absorbed by Carcosa.
According to this, the King in Yellow appears to be a mundane text... that also 'exposes' those who read to Hastur's influence and can cause a city to be absorbed/destroyed. That sounds pretty magical to me - but it has no mechanical magical properties, just plot ones.
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Read up on Detect Evil to see how Alignment Auras work. Basically Most people have to have 5 or more HD to detect as an alignment, and items actually need to be magical to detect. So a simple mass produced pamphlet would have no alignment aura at all, unless it were magical.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil
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Does the pamphlet have any magical properties? If not, it shouldn't detect as evil, but if it had some magical affects, like for example the Necronomicon and Book of the Damned, it would detect as evil.
Basically, a cleric's mundane (un)holy book won't detect, but a special (even non-artifact) magical (un)holy scripture would detect.
Fair. How then would you interpret this bit of lore (Copy/pasted from the Pathfinder Wiki on Hastur):
Unholy text
The King in Yellow stands singularly in its importance to Hastur's cult. Ostensibly a simple dramatisation of Yhtill's final days, those who read The King in Yellow expose themselves to Hastur's influence, and when the play is performed, the city that hosts it will be absorbed by Carcosa.According to this, the King in Yellow appears to be a mundane text... that also 'exposes' those who read to Hastur's influence and can cause a city to be absorbed/destroyed. That sounds pretty magical to me - but it has no mechanical magical properties, just plot ones.
It sounds like insanity, not quite a magical effect, though magic can duplicate it. At most it's supernatural, but even then, it's something that inherently hides it's evil nature and is also alien to everything people would already know.
Now if it actually opened some portal for Hastur & Friends to actually to swallow the city, like what sorta happens at the start of Strange Aeons, then absolutely yes, it is on power level with the book of the damned, it is overwhelmingly evil and will stun your players for even looking at it with their special aura eyes.
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Okay - it seems like everyone's in agreement that, regardless of the mystical plot effects, the otherwise mundane pamphlets should not detect as evil (or any other alignment) to the characters with Detect Alignment.
Oh, and I just realized that another character is getting that ability next level, so soon it will be two who can do that.
As to the turning into monsters, most readers don't turn fully - they just become more violent and join the riots (as a Troop of humans). Only a few become something other. Most of teh PCs allies have read the pamphlets too - and have become slightly more violent in fighting the evils of the city.
The idea is that the pamphlets are keyed to the 'anarchist' aspect of the three cities - hence the zeal of the revolution in the city. Plus the passages about one city of wealthy aristocrats at war with a city of down-to-earth hard working anarchists works beautifully as propaganda, Hastur influence aside.
Oh, and for anyone familiar with the actual history, I have Maximillian Robespierre as the head Hastur cultist (and one of the few who knows what is actually going on).
There are also a number of side distractions - a group of Vampires has also joined the revolutionaries to hide their meals among the dead, and a group of antiquarians at the Sorbonne are doing experiments with other mythos related things.
As to aberrations - I'm taking some liberties with monster origins and types. I had some evil Flumphs at the Sorbonne, for example, and a few humans have transformed into Dopplegangers (not that anyone is yet aware of that).
So yeah, confusion reins. The PCs know that something sinister is going on, what with all the weird monsters, but they have no idea what that is and are dealing with symptoms (stopping executions, rescuing hostages, and battling individual monster) without any real idea of the overarching cause.
Oh, and they have discovered a network of Elder Signs that allow them to teleport to various pre-designated locations within the city. They did alignment check the signs, but they detect as True Neutral, so they aren't worried about them and are happy to have a fast-travel system.
They should be worried about them. They should be very worried.
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Now if it actually opened some portal for Hastur & Friends to actually to swallow the city, like what sorta happens at the start of Strange Aeons, then absolutely yes, it is on power level with the book of the damned, it is overwhelmingly evil and will stun your players for even looking at it with their special aura eyes.
Strange Aeons was actually what gave me the idea to use Hastur. I wasn't that familiar with him, but I was looking for some ideas for session 1 enemies and did a read through of the first two adventures. By the time I was done, I was like 'yup - that's the elder god for this game'.
And yeah, that's the basic trajectory of the game. Paris is going to get swallowed unless the PCs can stop it. However, the pamphlets are not what's going to do that - they're just for driving the population into a murderous, anarchist frenzy.
So yeah - thanks everyone! I am firmly decided on a null return from detect alignment on the pamphlets. That's kinda what I was hoping for, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something that would unfairly keep the PCs abilities from working.
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Bit late to the party but I had to go off and think about this. Personally I think I would have them radiate evil once used. That is . . .
Printed Pamphlet
Just paper nothing to see here, move along.
Pamphlet Hastur is reaching through
"You sense an overwhelmingly powerful evil presence its not the pamphelet though but lies beyond as if you were gazing through a window into some horrible presence as its turns its gaze to you." Player is probably stunned ending the spell.
Pamphlet
"You sense a dim taint of evil on the pamphlet as though it were held at some point by a terrible being its taint left behind like a stain on the paper."
As for the person exposed I'd have it as a progressive thing. Maybe something like . . .
You read the pamphlet you take a hidden penalty to will saves against the cultists as your subconcious is programmed to desire serving him. However you forget that moment his power touched you and think you just read a pamphlet.
Join the cult or "pretend to join the cult" or read the play and your alignment is changed to evil (with a will save if forced) and gain an insanity.
Carcosa comes and you transform into a mythos creature.
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Just because something is not magical does not mean it is not evil. Any evil character of 5th level or higher detects as evil. The 5th level commoner how is also a mass murderer has a faint evil aura even though he has absolutely no magical ability.
If the text is able to corrupt people that seems like it is more than a mundane item. I would probably consider any texts that have actually corrupted someone to have been a direct manifestation of Hastur and as such would fall under the lingering Aura. So, a text that had corrupted someone would have a dim (weaker than a faint) aura of evil.
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Just because something is not magical does not mean it is not evil. Any evil character of 5th level or higher detects as evil. The 5th level commoner how is also a mass murderer has a faint evil aura even though he has absolutely no magical ability.
If the text is able to corrupt people that seems like it is more than a mundane item. I would probably consider any texts that have actually corrupted someone to have been a direct manifestation of Hastur and as such would fall under the lingering Aura. So, a text that had corrupted someone would have a dim (weaker than a faint) aura of evil.
I think its a conflict between Cthulu and Pathfinder, in pathfinder an item needs to have a certain tie to achieve an effect whereas in Cthulu the item itself is often less important. That is as you said its Hasturs influence acting through the text but the text itself is completely mundane and ordinary even as its acting on you. Which is why I do the 3 types if its not been used, if its being used though that may be better for a play script and if it has been used. The later like yours having a dim evil aura lingering on it.
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Hastur is a deity and in pathfinder a true deity is never written up. There may be a write up for an avatar or some of the lesser “deities”, but a true deity is never written up. That may not be an actual rule, but it is pretty close to it. The idea behind it is that anything with a stat block can be killed, by not having a stat block the GM can allow the deity to do what they need to without having to worry about the rules. This is something that has been said multiple times by developers, so probably falls under RAI if not RAW.
If you look at the play and the pamphlet as a manifestation of Hastur it can do whatever Hastur (the GM) wants without having to be written up as an actual magic item. As a deity Hastur can decide what if any aura it has. Hastur for the most part does not give a crap what we think of him so probably is not all that concerned with hiding his trail. That being the case I could easily see that the play might have a lingering aura of evil.
The OP already stated this was more of a plot device, but nothing says a plot device cannot have an aura. Would an area where a deity manifested to perform a major task have an aura?
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Bit late to the party
I mean, I haven't run another session yet, so further input is welcome.
I think its a conflict between Cthulu and Pathfinder, in pathfinder an item needs to have a certain tie to achieve an effect whereas in Cthulu the item itself is often less important.
That's exactly the issue I was having.
In Pathfinder, if the text could drive people insane and possibly turn them into monsters, then it should be magical and should radiate as such.
In the Cthulhu Mythos, things are more subtle. Reading the play draws the attention of Hastur who then causes the effects.
I checked in Strange Aeons, looking for more references. I didn't find any until I got to the final adventure. There is a sidebar there that reads as follows:
The King in Yellow is a ritual disguised as a play, often
found in written form but rarely performed. The ritual
is so potent that it has a self-sabotaging effect. When
the play is read, even silently, it is often activated by
the time the reader has gotten to Act 2. The second
act is a specific demarcation point in the ritual, a point
of no return. The reader becomes the primary caster
while thinking she is reading a piece of fiction. If bereft
of other actors, props, and stage movement, the ritual
inevitably fails and the hapless reader suffers backlash
that manifests as trauma and madness. In some cases,
the ritual summons monsters or causes the reader to be
transported to Carcosa.
I honestly don't know if this actually helps. Do rituals detect as evil (or other alignments)?
For that matter, another Hastur ritual elsewhere in the adventure causes participants to shift closer to Chaotic... and the goal of the pamphlets is to mind-screw the people of Paris into overthrowing the royals and the churches to remove those impediments. So... if anything, maybe the pamphlets should detect as Chaotic rather than Evil?
I will probably need to decide on this by this weekend, so I have a few days yet. Feel free to keep the discussion going if anyone has any further thoughts.
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Casting of an aligned spell (which this ritual probably counts as) does create an aura on the caster as appropriate to their level, but not necessarily the ritual components or the spell manifestation (though they are likely in close proximity anyway). Strongly thinking about engaging in, or actually engaging in, an aligned act (which casting an aligned spell counts as) overrides your current alignment auras.
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What it really comes down to is will the pamphlet detecting evil or chaotic advance the story and make the game more enjoyable. Or will it make it more difficult and cause problems with what you are planning. I understand this is the rules forum but sometimes it is not about the rules. This a something that the rules really do not cover. There is justification for the pamphlet to detect evil, and there is also justification for it not to detect as evil. In a case like this the best choice is going to be the one that is best for the game.
Personally, I would probably have it have a dim lingering aura of evil. A lot of players tend to miss the clues the GM put out so having more than one way to figure out what is going on is often helpful. Since the aura is weaker than normal you might even require a perception roll to notice it.