I know this isn't going to ever be the most optimal thing, but I've been planning a Sword Saint Samurai just to see, and here's what I've come up with - going straight Samurai, no multi-classing. Curious about your thoughts.
IMO there seem to be a couple of main routes here, both keying off Intimidate.
The first one goes for stuff like Dazzling Display, Dreadful Display, Violent Display, and eventually Deadly Stroke. It feels like a bit of a one-trick pony though, and comes online late-ish. It's also very much keyed to the one particular weapon you're using for the Iaijutsu Strike (since the "display" feats all require using that), which complicates things since if you already have that weapon drawn you can't easily re-sheathe it to Strike again.
The second option is more versatile, powerful, and I think safer.
1 ?
3 Power Attack
5 Signature Skill: Intimidate
6 Cornugon Smash
7 Hurtful
9 Furious Focus
11 Dreadful Carnage
The sequence here is:
Fight with naginata (or bow), spot a likely target, move up to it, then challenge.
Next round, Iaijutsu Strike with power attack (to allow Cornugon Smash). Hit triggers those d6s and also allows a free Intimidate. Beat the DC by 10+ and the target is frightened; he'll use his turn to run, possibly triggering AoO.
But before then, Hurtful kicks in, giving you a (swift) attack, also a Power Attack.
Drop him at lvl 11, and Dreadful Carnage scares everybody in 30', possibly frightening.
Now, Furious Focus is a prereq for Dreadful Carnage, but I'm wondering if it can actually be used on the Iaijutsu Strike. It requires you using two hands while power attacking.
If this is not possible on the Iaijutsu Strike itself, what about on the following hit from Hurtful?
And any other thoughts on the sequence here that I might be missing?
Some numbers (I'm kind of new at this, so let me know if I've got any of this wrong) -
Going by the above, level 7 is key, since Cornugon Smash + Hurtful is what allows us to make 2 attacks at full BAB. (If we want that a level sooner, it occurs to me I could move PA to lvl 1 and Hurtful to lvl 2, at the cost of some other feat like Weapon Focus or Combat Reflexes.)
At lvl 7, a samurai (Order of the Warrior as baseline) with 18 STR, Ancestral Weapon trait, power attacking at -2, gets a +11 to hit on the Iaijutsu Strike.
Damage would be 4d6+1d8+15 (Iaijutsu Strike, STR, PA, challenge).
A hit allows for a free-action demoralize. At lvl 7, a Half-Orc with MWK Intimidate tool, +1 from Bloody-minded trait, and 13 Cha has a +16 to Intimidate, without any feats like Intimidating Prowess or Skill Focus.
If that free Intimidate check works, we get to attack again at that first attack bonus thanks to Hurtful, and do the above damage again (minus the 4d6). If we're allowed to two-hand the katana after the Iaijutsu Strike, damage goes to 1d8+19.
That seems not bad, given at that level we'd otherwise get to full-attack with two attacks, one of which is at -5; this makes Iaijutsu Strike actually preferable to a regular full attack.
The Iaijutsu Strike also gets to force a Will save from every foe in 30' or be shaken, and at lvl 7 grants a +5 on the confirmation roll if it's a critical hit (+2 from Weapon Expertise, +1/2 lvl from Sword Saint's Brutal Slash).
We can improve these numbers - attack, Intimidate check, and demoralize malus - by considering Order of Vengeance, which at lvl 7 grants +2 attack vs challenge targets provided we've encountered their "kind" in the past 24 hours (going up to +3 at lvl 8), and grants 1/2 level on Intimidate (demoralize) checks. At lvl 8, it will begin granting increased penalties on demoralization, and get Critical Focus for free.
On the other hand, Order of the Warrior gives some dramatic, if perhaps less reliable, ways to help: the 2nd level ability grants a +4 to that Intimidate check as a free action (albeit twice a day at lvl 7), and the 8th lvl ability lets you burn resolve to roll an attack or skill 3 times (set it up with a standard action and you can do your triple-roll within a minute). Given that at lvl 8, you'll have 4 daily uses of resolve (plus whatever you've regained via defeating challenge targets), there's no reason not to set this up before every battle in which you think you'll Iaijutsu Strike, to increase your odds of a crit.
(Ronin order abilities look awesome, but don't synergize as well with this setup for Iaijutsu Strike; the 8th level ability could reroll to confirm a crit once per combat, but it's an immediate action, meaning we can't do it in the same turn that we use our swift-action attack from Hurtful.)
Order of Vengeance, then, gives solid bonuses for this sequence all through the early levels, whereas Order of the Warrior provides more defensive buffs and dramatic, if situational, options.
Either way, this is the best I can come up with for Iaijutsu Strike in a pure samurai build.
what race?
if human i recommend the focused study alt racial trait.
get free skill focus feat at 1st, 8th. and 12th level for +3 (or 6 with 10 ranks) to your main skill checks.
get free skill focus intimidate, then later maybe perception and UMD.
grab the dangerously curious trait for UMD as a class skill, now use wands/scrolls of utility/heal spells out of combat.
There are existing mwk tools for intimidate, which are all circumstantial. there isn't any single mwk intimidate tool that gives +2 vs everything.
maybe grab steel skin trait for +2 intimidate
you would still have your feat slot free, so you could grab additional traits and start with 4 traits.
steel skin (combat trait, +2 intimidate)
Ancestral Weapon (regional trait),
dangerously curious (magic trait, umd class skill, +1)
and any other trait. maybe make perception a class skill with seeker, or since you're from Numeria you're probably Kellid so take wary of danger (social, +2 init) or you can take adopted (social, give a race trait for different race) for elves and grab warrior of old for +2 init.)
I was thinking Half-orc for the race. The +2 Intimidate was what had me originally build to that style, and Darkvision seems handy. Swap Orc ferocity for Toothy, use the Naginata prior to Iaijutsu Strike, and you threaten a pretty large area if I understand the rules right.
That said a Half-orc can probably grab 1 or 2 of those traits you mention - I had completely missed Steel Skin, so that's a good catch!
But I'm not sure how far to go investing in Intimidate, since the DC to demoralize doesn't seem *too* difficult to beat. For the purposes of the Iaijutsu Strike/Cornugon Smash/Hurtful sequence, it's only crucial that we pass that DC: we don't need to beat it by 10 or 20 to make the foe frightened or panicked; it's enough to make them shaken so we get our second attack from Hurtful. Of course, the extra fear effects are fun. I was thinking of grabbing Intimidating Prowess to add Str to Intimidate checks; it's a stat I'd want to pump anyway.
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If you want to optimize more you also have to take into account magic items.
Malevolent armor (flat 5k cost) is +2 to intimidate and lets you add armor bonus on attack vs flat-footed/prone opponents.
A scabbard of vigor lets you get +4 enchantment bonus for 1 round when you draw the sword. Which greatly increases chance to hit. You can add in the scabbard of honing for a measly 750 gp. Add in the scabbard of keen edge effect and your first attack becomes pretty beefy with minimal actually spent on the weapon.
Unseen weapon enchantment can potentially give you -1 to hit (use blind-fight for the first feat), but it can also deny the enemy's dex to AC on your first strike (wording makes it not proc malevolent).
Cruel lets you add the sickened condition for 1 round if you hit with hurtful. Which is nice when it works.
You can also throw in various 3/day abilities since iaijutsu strikes don't happen often vs a boss monster.
Another aspect to this involves maximizing the move/action economy, which is a notorious shortcoming of the Iaijutsu Strike.
In another post (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u056?Sell-me-on-Sword-Saint) user Kazaan expressed the possibility of using the "start full-round action" standard action to this effect. Here's the relevant part:
Quote:
There's one interesting thing I've noted for Sword Saint. The full-round Iaijutsu Strike can be performed using the Start/Complete a Full-Round Action actions.
With Start/Complete a Full-Round Action, you spend a standard action in one round to "start", then another standard action in the next round to "complete" and the Full-Round Action takes place as part of the "complete" action. The Start/Finish actions explicitly exclude Full-Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Run actions, but Iaijutsu Strike is none of these (it's a Use Special Ability action). So you can move into a good position and issue your challenge in Round 1 and Start Full-Round Action, then in Round 2, you can move into melee range (if needed) and spend your Standard action to Complete and execute the Iaijutsu Strike against your designated target. It makes it a bit easier to execute.
I'm not sure precisely how this sequence would go, but let me give it a shot:
Round 1. See an enemy you want to challenge. Say the target is 40' away, and you've got a 20' speed. Move 20' closer (move action), then issue challenge (swift action), and Start Full-Round Action (standard action).
Round 2. Move 20' to be adjacent to enemy (move action) and Complete Full-Round Action (standard action) to execute Iaijutsu Strike.
Is this permissible? Can you really get 2 move actions and 2 standard actions out of 2 rounds in which you are doing a full-round action, as here?
If so, the next question is, what about other swift/immediate actions? Say the above is legit. In Round 2, can I use a swift action, or does the swift action challenge from the previous round count against it?
If all of this works, then you could use one of your move actions to sheathe your sword at some point, which would be useful in setting up Iaijutsu Strike...
i dont think you can move in between the standard actions, you cant break up a full round action with a move action in the middle of it. you could "move/standard, standard/move", but "standard/move, move/standard" or "move/standard, move/standard" wouldn't work as you're interrupting your own action
Yeah, that seems like the most reasonable interpretation. I can't find any place in the rules that nails it down, though - here is the bit from the SRD:
Quote: The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. Based on this text alone, the only necessary element that I can see is 2 standard actions in 2 consecutive rounds. It doesn't say anything about move actions - or even if move actions are allowed at all in either of those rounds (though it makes sense that they would be).
I think they mean that you can't do it because you cannot interrupt an action unless it is a swift/immediate, free, or non-action.
So you could do the start in one round and the finish in another, but you still wouldn't be able to move in between.
The exception may be fly-by attack which lets you do a standard action in the middle of a move action. If true a flying samurai with fly-by attack could round 1 (start move, start draw, finish move) then round 2 (start move, finish draw, finish move). Which does sound very cinematic.
you have to finish the action to start a new one.
you cant take a move action in the middle of a full round action.
you have to finish the full round action before you can start a new action.
That makes intuitive sense, that you can't interrupt an action to start another - but is there a spot in the rules where this is pointed out? (My CRB is the second printing, so it may be missing some later additions, but I can't find where this would be on the SRD)
The "start/finish full-round action" standard action seems to be mostly intended for spellcasters, but I can't find anything that prohibits a spellcaster doing the following:
Round 1 - move action, standard action to begin casting full-round spell
Round 2 - move action, stand action to finish casting full-round spell
The closest I can find is this:
Quote: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. However, this seems to describe the vast majority of situations, when you're completing your full-round action during the course of a single round. If this is meant to describe every full-round action, the "start/finish full round action" standard action wouldn't work, since it allows you to move more than a 5-foot step as part of beginning a full-round action.
In the case of Iaijutsu Strike, the sequence "move/standard, then move/standard" doesn't seem prohibited by RAW (that I can find). It doesn't seem particularly overpowered either, since you're still devoting two standard actions to a single attack, and at most getting your full move speed.
Flyby Attack does indeed look possible at lvl 10, when Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action! Just need to get a fly speed :)
Spring Attack doesn't look like it'd work, but I'm not really clear on that. Spring Attack is a full-round action; Iaijutsu Strike is a standard action. I don't think you can do both simultaneously.
Vital Strike seems... unclear. It comes down to precisely what kind of action Iaijutsu Strike is at level 10. Here's what it says:
Quote: At 10th level, a sword saint learns to focus faster and is able to make an iaijutsu strike as a standard action And here's Vital Strike:
Quote: When you use the attack action... A FAQ on the SRD for Vital Strike has the following:
Quote: Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action.
Iaijutsu Strike is called "a standard action".... but is it also an "attack action"? Here's the SRD defining "attack action":
Quote: Attack Action: An attack action is a type of standard action. Some combat options can modify only this specific sort of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can apply both Greater Weapon of the Chosen and Vital Strike to the same attack, as both modify your attack action. You can apply these to any combat option that takes the place of a melee attack made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver), though options that increase damage don’t cause attacks to deal damage if they wouldn’t otherwise do so (such as Vital Strike and trip). You can’t combine options that modify attack actions with standard actions that aren’t attack actions, such as Cleave. Iaijutsu Strike is listed as (Ex), an extraordinary ability, which is listed separately from "attack action" ... so I guess that settles that. It's not an attack action, therefore Vital Strike doesn't apply.
CountMRVHS wrote: Spring Attack doesn't look like it'd work, but I'm not really clear on that. Spring Attack is a full-round action; Iaijutsu Strike is a standard action. I don't think you can do both simultaneously. Correct, you can't. Spring Attack allows you to make an attack, it doesn't let you take an action. No active ability (that's anything containing language saying "as an X action" or the likes) using a move or greater action works with Spring Attack*.
CountMRVHS wrote: Vital Strike seems... unclear. It comes down to precisely what kind of action Iaijutsu Strike is at level 10. [...] Iaijutsu Strike is called "a standard action".... but is it also an "attack action"? Unless the exact phrase "the attack action" is used, what's described is not the attack action. No active ability ever works with Vital Strike*.
*) As usual, other rule options can override this, but they require explicit exceptions, meaning they need to name-drop "Spring Attack" or "Vital Strike".
Derklord wrote: CountMRVHS wrote: Spring Attack doesn't look like it'd work, but I'm not really clear on that. Spring Attack is a full-round action; Iaijutsu Strike is a standard action. I don't think you can do both simultaneously. Correct, you can't. Spring Attack allows you to make an attack, it doesn't let you take an action. No active ability (that's anything containing language saying "as an X action" or the likes) using a move or greater action works with Spring Attack*.
CountMRVHS wrote: Vital Strike seems... unclear. It comes down to precisely what kind of action Iaijutsu Strike is at level 10. [...] Iaijutsu Strike is called "a standard action".... but is it also an "attack action"? Unless the exact phrase "the attack action" is used, what's described is not the attack action. No active ability ever works with Vital Strike*.
*) As usual, other rule options can override this, but they require explicit exceptions, meaning they need to name-drop "Spring Attack" or "Vital Strike". Great example with Vital Strike is the Heritor Knight prestige class. Too bad it has so much of a longsword bent to that class.
Temperans, I just realized that I overlooked one of your earlier posts recommending magic items - some great picks there, thanks!
Speaking of stuff that may or may not combo with Iaijutsu Strike -
Order of the Warrior's lvl 15 ability Strike True (Ex.):
Quote: At 15th level, the order of the warrior samurai can use his years of training and focus to make the perfect strike. When he uses this ability, the samurai makes an attack as normal. If the attack hits, it is a critical threat. The samurai must roll to confirm the critical as normal. The attack deals the maximum amount of damage, although additional dice from weapon qualities, sneak attack, and additional dice from a critical hit are rolled normally. The damage from this attack ignores any damage reduction the target might have and also causes the target to become blinded, deafened, sickened, or staggered for 1d4 rounds (the samurai’s choice). Making this attack is a standard action. The samurai can use this ability once per day. My assumption is that this can *not* be used with Iaijutsu Strike - that is, you can't both Iaijutsu Strike and Strike True in the same action, even when Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action at lvl 10. They're two different extraordinary abilities, and "makes an attack as normal" seems to suggest a regular attack.
What I'm less sure about is the Ronin's 15th-level ability, Chosen Destiny (also "Ex"):
Quote: At 15th level, the ronin is the master of his own destiny. Whenever the ronin makes a saving throw against a charm or compulsion effect, he may roll twice and take the better result. In addition, once per day, the ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. He must declare the use of this ability before the roll is made. Since this is not described as any kind of action, it seems that you *could* use the "treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20" with the Iaijutsu Strike.
CountMRVHS wrote: Temperans, I just realized that I overlooked one of your earlier posts recommending magic items - some great picks there, thanks!
Speaking of stuff that may or may not combo with Iaijutsu Strike -
Order of the Warrior's lvl 15 ability Strike True (Ex.):
Quote: At 15th level, the order of the warrior samurai can use his years of training and focus to make the perfect strike. When he uses this ability, the samurai makes an attack as normal. If the attack hits, it is a critical threat. The samurai must roll to confirm the critical as normal. The attack deals the maximum amount of damage, although additional dice from weapon qualities, sneak attack, and additional dice from a critical hit are rolled normally. The damage from this attack ignores any damage reduction the target might have and also causes the target to become blinded, deafened, sickened, or staggered for 1d4 rounds (the samurai’s choice). Making this attack is a standard action. The samurai can use this ability once per day. My assumption is that this can *not* be used with Iaijutsu Strike - that is, you can't both Iaijutsu Strike and Strike True in the same action, even when Iaijutsu Strike becomes a standard action at lvl 10. They're two different extraordinary abilities, and "makes an attack as normal" seems to suggest a regular attack.
What I'm less sure about is the Ronin's 15th-level ability, Chosen Destiny (also "Ex"):
Quote: At 15th level, the ronin is the master of his own destiny. Whenever the ronin makes a saving throw against a charm or compulsion effect, he may roll twice and take the better result. In addition, once per day, the ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. He must declare the use of this ability before the roll is made. Since this is not described as any kind of action, it seems that you *could* use the "treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20" with the Iaijutsu Strike.
Yes, Order of the Warrior lv 15 would not stack due to both being standard action.
Yes, Ronin would stack because it is a non-action. You can use it to guarantee the hit and use another ability to auto confirm the crit (Say resolve).
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