Second edition of Mythic Rules coming soon (revised to massively increase low-level options), looking for last minute feedback. AMA!

[manbearscientist]

I have been at work trying to create a second version of my mythic rules. Since I started, Pathfinder Infinite has come around and I will try to put my book on that platform for free, though I may have to get creative on art assets or do them myself.

At first, the niche I was intending for mythic rules to fill was that of epic levels. After all, 2E's promise of workable high levels meant that there would soon be people reaching level 20 and wanting more.

However, the main comment I've seen, particularly since Owlcat's Wrath of Righteous came out, is that people also want lower level mythic play or to convert previous mythic characters.

So I've completely updated my system, fleshing out a fully 1-25 (or 1-20!) setup and substantially adding to the new content in the book.

The biggest addition is mythic archetypes. Rather than getting a miserly 3 mythic feats in early levels, characters will now be able to gain an archetype that allows them to take certain feats as class feats. These mythic archetypes do not compete with regular archetypes; they are a source of power, not a profession. However, like other archetypes you must take at least three archetype feats before taking another dedication of the same type. Which means that yes, you can gain power from both dragons and lichs, or both angels and demons.

And boy are there a lot of archetypes. At 40, there are nearly as many as in the entirety of the Advanced Players Guide. Those archetypes include:

Aberration
Aeon
Agathion
Alignment
Angel
Archmage
Archon
Azata
Clockwork
Daemon
Demigod
Demon
Devil
Dragon
Elemental
Ennosite
Fey
Graveknight
Martial Master (based on the Champion path)
Heirophant
Lich
Marshall
Protean
Psychopomp
Rakshasa
Spirits
Sahkil
Swarm-That-Walks
Titan
Trickster
Vampire
Velstrac

I am also considering adding in Ooze and perhaps 1 or 2 other archetypes, though I don't plan to add significantly more content than that. I have also reworked a substantial portion of the mythic feats, changed up Surge, and removed the concept of "points of mythic power" in favor of frequency limits; my playtest revealed that mythic stuff shouldn't be limited to 2 times per day for a large portion of character's lifespan.

Each of these comes with its own modifications of the mythic rules, access to new and old feats, and/or focus spells. Perhaps more enticing to some, many of these also have a new high level feat with a new trait: transformation.

If any of the above interest you (or if you want to know other ways I've adopted the system to play better in lower levels), please ask me anything. I have quite a few awesome thematic aspects; I think each of these archetypes will sufficiently carry their flavor and mechanical promise.

As for the next steps, I am mostly working on editing pass-throughs for spelling, grammar, and formatting. I may or may not splurge to add significant art assets. Aside from this book, I am currently converting Wrath of the Righteous to 2E and making it work with this edition of the mythic rules. I am also working on a mythic bestiary to go with that, including all the creatures needed to run WOTR and quite a few more. My plan is to hopefully release these for free Pathfinder Infinite on all platforms (PDF, phone PDF, ePub, Virtual Tabletop, and Mobi) as well as being available through Pathbuilder (though I'm not sure on the process for that).

[Sanityfaerie]

I'd suggest including a version of Free Archetype that says, in effect, "you get one mythic archetype and X free archetype feats to spend on it at the following levels". Possibly have that variant (or a different one) say that those are the only ways to get feats of those archetypes.

A lot of people really like their class feats, and having the mythic archetype be something they get on top of that is going to feel more satisfying than having it be something they have to take away from their class to get.

Everyone can homebrew, of course, and everyone knows that they can homebrew, but having official variants helps make it feel more solid, especially if you can put a bit of effort (or just knowledge from the system mastery from having written the things) into figuring out what is and is not likely to work.

[manbearscientist]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

I'd suggest including a version of Free Archetype that says, in effect, "you get one mythic archetype and X free archetype feats to spend on it at the following levels". Possibly have that variant (or a different one) say that those are the only ways to get feats of those archetypes.

A lot of people really like their class feats, and having the mythic archetype be something they get on top of that is going to feel more satisfying than having it be something they have to take away from their class to get.

Everyone can homebrew, of course, and everyone knows that they can homebrew, but having official variants helps make it feel more solid, especially if you can put a bit of effort (or just knowledge from the system mastery from having written the things) into figuring out what is and is not likely to work.

My recommendation in the book is exactly that! I have a Variant Rule called "Mythic Free Archetype" which works exactly how you'd expect: players get an additional class feat at every even level after first receiving a mythic feat, which they can use only on mythic archetype feats. Normally this would start at level 6 (mythic tier 1 doesn't give a feat; mythic tier 2 is usually offered around level 5), but this could start as soon as level 2 if the GM decides to start players off with a mythic feat to pick a dedication with.

[Sanityfaerie]

It also sounds like adding a mythic archetype (especially with mythic free archetype) is a significant increase in overall player power once ti starts kicking in. That's not a problem at all. It seems to be kind of the point. At the same time, it seems like it would throw off the currently existing pretty tight math for challenge levels. Do you have any suggestions in there on how to put together an encounter budget for DMs who want to challenge their new mythic players without crushing them utterly?

[manbearscientist]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

It also sounds like adding a mythic archetype (especially with mythic free archetype) is a significant increase in overall player power once ti starts kicking in. That's not a problem at all. It seems to be kind of the point. At the same time, it seems like it would throw off the currently existing pretty tight math for challenge levels. Do you have any suggestions in there on how to put together an encounter budget for DMs who want to challenge their new mythic players without crushing them utterly?

Yes. Currently the goal is to fit as closely as possible to a +1 increase to the overall party level. So a level 6 party would be treated as level 7 for the purposes of building encounters or gaining experience.

As far as the math goes, most of the damage is done outside of feats. So you won't see "Ultra Necromancy: you get legendary proficiency in necromancy spells" on the lich path. Instead, players will have numeric boosts independent of which archetype they pick.

This typically makes them around +0 or +1 at what they focus on compared a non-mythic character fighting a one level lower monster, and -1 to -3 on what they don't.

Mythic dedications typically offer a bunch of small themed benefits to start. For instance, all archetypes improve at least one skill to expert. Martial archetypes give 4 HP per mythic feat (with the same caveat as free archetype has on the number times you should benefit from this of you are playing with a free archetype variant) and a low level fighter feat. Magic archetypes give basic spellcasting benefits. Skill archetypes improve another skill to expert and grant a skill feat.

And many also interact with the Surge ability. For instance, Dragon gains temporary Hit Points whenever you Surge, and gives you the option to add elemental damage to the unarmed Strikes it gives.

I would say that a bit more power is put into focus spells, though typically not by grossly going over damage formulas. For instance, Agathions have a healing-only Lay on Hands sidegrade that restores 20 Hit Points (+8/lvl) as a level 3 focus spell. I would that most are a little more powerful than an at level spell, to around the same amount that a regular spell is over the current focus spells.

More extreme power boosts happen typically at higher levels, where we already see class feats grant permanent quickened or Whirlwind Strike. This would be the transformation feats mostly.

As far as making mythic monsters to actually challenge the party, the book does gives some guidelines. The main recommendation is to give them their own Surge ability and the elite template.

So a mythic minotaur would be a level 5 creature. One example for a Surge ability would be a Demonic Surge, which would give them the ability to cast Enlarge (for one action) and for one round gain 1d6 persistent bleed damage on their horn attack (an option available to players that take the Demon
Archetype). Or a unique ability could be created with the same active, but with the passive effect of adding Knockdown to that turns attacks.

In addition to this, the book recommends giving some generic mythic feats to higher level monsters and has some additional feedback on class-based NPCs (such as what a mythic wizard NPC should have).

[Pyrurge]

This sounds incredibly good. I already liked the previous iteration of your Mythic rules, as well as your Kineticist homebrew; this seems like an all-around improvement. I'm mostly interested in Elemental. Will it have options for both casters and martials, and will it have para-elemental options like lightning and ice?

[manbearscientist]

Pyrurge wrote:

This sounds incredibly good. I already liked the previous iteration of your Mythic rules, as well as your Kineticist homebrew; this seems like an all-around improvement. I'm mostly interested in Elemental. Will it have options for both casters and martials, and will it have para-elemental options like lightning and ice?

Currently I do not have para-elemental options. The elemental archetype is on the martial spectrum, but I think most of the archetypes will have appeals to both martials and casters.

Because it is on the martial spectrum, it will give 4 Hit Points per feat, advance a single skill to expert, and give a level 1 or 2 fighter Feat. It will also modify Surge, however, and both martials and casters will benefit from this. Their Surge has the passive effect of increasing elemental damage after using Surge, and gives the option to change the traits and damage types of abilities you control.

For instance, you could convert Fireball into an Electric Air trait spell that deals electricity damage (which is passively increased by the other effect). Or into an Earth trait spell that does bludgeoning damage.

It also has a feat that allows you to easily travel between the Material Plane and a plane corresponding to your element; this also gives you access to the four elemental languages and a circumstance bonus to Intimidation or Diplomacy check against creatures with the elemental trait.

It also has three focus spells: Elemental Blast (which can be used to heal you or creatures of the appropriate elemental trait), Elemental Cascade, and Elemental Landscape.

[Pyrurge]

I see. Well, seems good enough! What about spellcasting archetypes, how do they work exactly? Will there be an option to just flat-out add some spells to your repertoire/spellbook/familiar by taking the Mythic Path of the same tradition, like Wizard or Sorcerer theoretically taking Wizard or Sorcerer archetype respectively?

[Sanityfaerie]

So... I'm hearing "Goblin Flame Order Druid Fire Elemental". Is anyone else hearing "Goblin Flame Order Druid Fire Elemental"?

[manbearscientist]

Here is how the spellcasting chassis for archetypes work:

Each spellcasting archetype gets the initial and basic spellcasting benefits with the dedication. They have feats for expert, master, and legendary spellcasting benefits. The last is not unique to mythic archetypes, and is intended for epic play (it is a level 22 feat that adds a 9th and 10th level spell slot, with the caveat that a character can only gain one additional 10th level slot through feats).

Each mythic casting archetype also allows casters to mythic heighten spells when they take the dedication. This is a special use of the Surge ability. It is slightly different from the original way I handled this. Cantrips, focus spells, and 10th level spells are always mythic heightened once you have the ability. There are also feats to mythic heighten spells from items and ancestry feats as well.

Finally, whenever you mythic heighten a spell cast from your spell slots, you give up one of your highest level spell slots instead of the slot you cast the spell from. For example, if a 7th level Wizard mythic heightened fireball, it would heighten to 5th level and they would have to give up one of their 4th level spell slots. They can still cast their 3rd level fireball from its original spell slot later; they can even mythic heighten it. They had used all of their 4th level spell slots instead, they could choose to lose their prepared fireball spell slot or another 3rd level spell slot, as that is the highest they have left.

There is an exception for 10th level spells, which are never 'used up' in this way.

Anyway, a lot of the power and 'mythicness' of the spellcasting archetypes will be contained in the mythic feats that they allow you to access and the unique feats for their archetype. For instance, Archmage allows you to take feats that accomplish the following:

Roll twice and take the better result when counteracting spells cast from non-mythic sources

Constant mage armor heightened to your highest non-mythic spell level

Automatically identify any spell you see cast so long as you have the highest currently possible rank in the skill associated with that spell's tradition

Spell Perfection - 3 times per day, you can mythic heighten the chosen spell to a level even beyond mythic heighten levels

Metamastery - Once per hour, can ignore frequency limits of metamagic feats and use them as a free-action

One feat at relatively high level in the Archmage class is Spell Storm, a three-action activity that can only be used once per hour. Immediately after using this activity, you can spend up to 6 actions to use the Cast a Spell activity. However, each spell you cast must have a different name. After using this ability, you are stunned 2 and cannot use Surge for one minute.

As another example, the Lich can get feats that allow them to have fly as a constant spell. They also get the mythic feat True Necromancy, which lets them cast create undead without needing secondary casters and with a casting time of only 1 minute; this feat also allows undead to be assigned to troops and commanded as a troop minion.

[Sanityfaerie]

Presumably, casting a mythic-heightened fireball from a third-level slot would be less powerful than casting it from a fourth-level slot, yes?

So, basically it's jsut saying that if you mythic-heighten you can't hold anything back?

[manbearscientist]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Presumably, casting a mythic-heightened fireball from a third-level slot would be less powerful than casting it from a fourth-level slot, yes?

So, basically it's jsut saying that if you mythic-heighten you can't hold anything back?

Functionally, there is no difference between the two of you mythic heighten them. This has worked in tests because of the opportunity cost.

Mythic heightening works like a metamagic. By using it, you are foregoing your third action (most of the time) and you aren't adding any other metamagic to the spell. A fourth level fireball can do 8d6 damage with metamagic, or 8d6 with a Shield cantrip or Stride, or 10d6 with mythic heighten. A low level fireball isn't going to be as useful or safe, even if they function the same way when going all out.

As far as why this is necessary, spell casters are going to be facing things +1 higher than normal, without access to either the additional spell slots or the higher level spells they normally would have against said opponents. Mythic heightening in this way extends their day and their peak so that they can maintain effectiveness.