In Pathfinder, the word "humanoid" almost always means the creature type.
It is worth noting that if you have a version of alter self that does not require material components (either by eschew materials, a SLA/Su ability, druids get it as a class ability, etc.) there isn't exactly anything limiting you to real creatures. Basically as long as its vaguely humanoid and still alive, you can more or less just use it to make yourself look like whatever. Still talk to your GM about the acquired abilities, but if it's for looks and flavor...
|
It is worth noting that if you have a version of alter self that does not require material components (either by eschew materials, a SLA/Su ability, druids get it as a class ability, etc.) there isn't exactly anything limiting you to real creatures. Basically as long as its vaguely humanoid and still alive, you can more or less just use it to make yourself look like whatever. Still talk to your GM about the acquired abilities, but if it's for looks and flavor...
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.
You need to select something that exists in the Bestiaryes (and addenda) under the Humanoid type. You can't invent a creature, nor add a template.
Infinite universe, infinite possibilities. Who is to say that said invented creature doesn't happen to actually exist or doesn't meet the qualifications of "humanoid creature"? Plus there's things with mixed types like human-looking outsider races which are even more wildly varying than just all the normal humanoids. Also as the only abilities you can even acquire are low-light vision, scent, darkvision 60ft, and swim 30ft, I doubt you will be able to invent things that really break the spell, especially as plenty of humanoid types have all four of them and you can just become that.
Again, it's a mostly fluff mechanical feature.
Infinite universe, infinite possibilities. Who is to say that said invented creature doesn't happen to actually exist or doesn't meet the qualifications of "humanoid creature"? Plus there's things with mixed types like human-looking outsider races which are even more wildly varying than just all the normal humanoids. Also as the only abilities you can even acquire are low-light vision, scent, darkvision 60ft, and swim 30ft, I doubt you will be able to invent things that really break the spell, especially as plenty of humanoid types have all four of them and you can just become that.
Again, it's a mostly fluff mechanical feature.
If that is how you and your table want to play your game that's fine. But suggesting something that is not rules legal in the rules discussion thread isn't very helpful.
If that is how you and your table want to play your game that's fine. But suggesting something that is not rules legal in the rules discussion thread isn't very helpful.Infinite universe, infinite possibilities. Who is to say that said invented creature doesn't happen to actually exist or doesn't meet the qualifications of "humanoid creature"? Plus there's things with mixed types like human-looking outsider races which are even more wildly varying than just all the normal humanoids. Also as the only abilities you can even acquire are low-light vision, scent, darkvision 60ft, and swim 30ft, I doubt you will be able to invent things that really break the spell, especially as plenty of humanoid types have all four of them and you can just become that.
Again, it's a mostly fluff mechanical feature.
The rule is you need a piece of a creature to become that creature. Normally that would mean the creature needs to exist to first get a piece of them. But if you ignore the material component, nothing stops you from becoming anything within the other limitations of the spell (what specific benefits you get), therefore you can more or less become anything vaguely humanoid.
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
You can become anything that has the Humanoid type. So you can become an Elf or a Gnome, but not a Tiefling, a faye or an Aasimar.
There are tieflings that get the humanoid type, same with Aasimar. You can also of course become a human with plant or fey-looking features. All assuming you can ignore needing to first find a existing creature that matches you intended appearance and then acquiring one or multiple parts of them.
There are tieflings that get the humanoid type, same with Aasimar. You can also of course become a human with plant or fey-looking features. All assuming you can ignore needing to first find a existing creature that matches you intended appearance and then acquiring one or multiple parts of them.
Under the Polymorph rules:
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
Bolded the relevant part. A generic Human has no fey or plant-based features. You don't get to look like anything other than a basic version of a creature with the Humanoid type as described in the book. I would argue you can decide the hair, skin, eye color and some subtle facial features to match the ethnicity of the area, but even then they MUST be within the generic aspects of a human.
Though,
I would allow the tiefling and Aasimar humanoid but at that point they have no noticeable physical details that differentiate them from a human/their base race.
These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed).
Regardless, the main point is that nearly all polymorph spells and abilities limit you to only looking like a "normal" "generic" version of that creature. And regardless of eschew materials or the like, you can still only choose options that share the listed type, Humanoid in the case of Alter Self. You unfortunately don't get to "build a Humanoid" and look like some exotic alien pretending to be that Humanoid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Though,
I would allow the tiefling and Aasimar humanoid but at that point they have no noticeable physical details that differentiate them from a human/their base race.
There actually is a polymorph spell for the playable native outsider races, Infuse Self.
There actually is a polymorph spell for the playable native outsider races, Infuse Self.Though,
I would allow the tiefling and Aasimar humanoid but at that point they have no noticeable physical details that differentiate them from a human/their base race.
Oh, was not aware of that spell, thanks for the heads up!
There are tieflings that get the humanoid type, same with Aasimar. You can also of course become a human with plant or fey-looking features. All assuming you can ignore needing to first find a existing creature that matches you intended appearance and then acquiring one or multiple parts of them.Under the Polymorph rules:
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.Bolded the relevant part. A generic Human has no fey or plant-based features. You don't get to look like anything other than a basic version of a creature with the Humanoid type as described in the book. I would argue you can decide the hair, skin, eye color and some subtle facial features to match the ethnicity of the area, but even then they MUST be within the generic aspects of a human.
Though,
I would allow the tiefling and Aasimar humanoid but at that point they have no noticeable physical details that differentiate them from a human/their base race.These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed).Regardless, the main point is that nearly all polymorph spells and abilities limit you to only looking like a "normal" "generic" version of that creature. And regardless of eschew materials or the like, you can still only choose options that share the listed type, Humanoid in the case of Alter Self. You unfortunately don't get to "build a Humanoid" and look like some exotic alien pretending to be that Humanoid.
Note the relevant point of not needing a material component means you can invent the humanoid ("human with some leaves for hair") creature and then become them, even if you're "generic" for said invented race. Even better, there's a race builder, for again, this infinite, barely explored universe, where it comes back to the GM to agree or decline the specific race that lets you doll up your character in an entirely unmechanical way.
Also Paizo doesn't even follow that "generic member" rule for creating their own shape changing characters. What even is a generic "human" when there's a but load of different ethnicities, heights, etc. The first use of a shape changing monster changing into a specific existing character (as opposed to someone who could be entirely the shapechanger's own invention) is literally Vimanda becoming Vencarlo Orisini in book 3 of Crimson Throne. The sentences of the rule even conflict: "cannot look like a specific individual... can control finer details" such as the exact facial shape and height, build, etc. of a specific individual.
Note the relevant point of not needing a material component means you can invent the humanoid
Stop inventing things. Do the polymorph rules (or the spell) say you can invent a race? No? Then you can't. The whole point of Pathfinder is to have existing rules instead of making things up yourself.
Even better, there's a race builder
...that's a purely optional side system (that no one uses).
The first use of a shape changing monster changing into a specific existing character (as opposed to someone who could be entirely the shapechanger's own invention) is literally Vimanda becoming Vencarlo Orisini in book 3 of Crimson Throne.
- That's literally from a different game. The line "polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals" did not exist in 3.5, and was added for Pathfinder.
The sentences of the rule even conflict: "cannot look like a specific individual... can control finer details" such as the exact facial shape and height, build, etc. of a specific individual.
The conflict vanished when you use the actual rules instead of your strawman. The book says "many of the fine details can be controlled". Not that all details can be controlled, or that they can be controlled enough to mimik a person.
What even is a generic "human" when there's a but load of different ethnicities, heights, etc.
Are you trying to be obtuse?
Note the relevant point of not needing a material component means you can invent the humanoid ("human with some leaves for hair") creature and then become them, even if you're "generic" for said invented race.
Except it doesn't. Not needing to use the material components means that you can select any creature that exists and has the Humanoid type.
Even better, there's a race builder, for again, this infinite, barely explored universe, where it comes back to the GM to agree or decline the specific race that lets you doll up your character in an entirely unmechanical way.
Agreed, your DM can create any Humanoid race they want using the race builder. But that is a tool exclusive to the DM and is not meant for players. If your DM allows this then more power to you!
Also Paizo doesn't even follow that "generic member" rule for creating their own shape changing characters.
Oh great, show me a few examples if you wouldn't mind.
What even is a generic "human" when there's a but load of different ethnicities, heights, etc.
A generic human with human traits, features and such. I mentioned this in the above post.
The first use of a shape changing monster changing into a specific existing character (as opposed to someone who could be entirely the shapechanger's own invention) is literally Vimanda becoming Vencarlo Orisini in book 3 of Crimson Throne
Vimanda is a Kitsune, using her Change Shape (Alter self Medium or small humanoid) ability to look like a generic human male.
The sentences of the rule even conflict: "cannot look like a specific individual... can control finer details" such as the exact facial shape and height, build, etc. of a specific individual.
But they don't contradict. I am a Kitsune and my friend is a dwarf named Allen. If I use my change shape ability to look like a dwarf, I CAN NEVER look just like Allen. I can use Disguise to try and look like Allen and not take any penalty though since I am now in the shape of a male dwarf.
I want to correct my previous statement that Vimanda is a kitsune. She is not. For some reason when looking her up the first link uses a kitsune to portray her. She is a Rakshasa. A creature that also has Change Shape (alter self any humanoid). My point still stands but I wanted to make sure it was clear.
You can't polymorph into a Tieflin or Asimar with the Pass for Human ability. They are outsiders that need an alternate racial trait to count as a humanoid, but none of the Polymorph abilities allows you to take the Pass for Human racial trait.
Yup, realized my mistake when Derklord mentioned the spell infuse self. Thanks for clarifying though.
to look like a specific individual one need something like ether being a kitsune and pick the Realistic likeness feat or use the assume appearance (or greater version) spell.
i believe that both still limit you to a humanoid target. the spell is also limited to a dead target.