CRB Questions

[Malgwyn]

Hey all

New to P2, and only played some PF1 (never GM'd either edition), so I'll probably have questions to ask about the system that I'd like to ask about here.

Page 250: Society
So, unless you have Stealth 'Trained +2', you can't even attempt to mimic someone else's handwriting [Create Forgery]?

Likewise with Acrobatics and [Manoeuvre in Flight], or Athletics and [Disarm].

All are Trained skills, so if I'm not trained, I can't even attempt those [] actions? That seems a bit harsh. Surely I can attempt to (for e.g.) copy someone else's handwriting [Create Forgery], and in PF1 everyone could at least attempt a [Disarm] action (albeit you needed a Feat to be any good at it).

I was considering a house rule wherein if you were Untrained you could still attempt the above action but you roll two d20 having to choose the lowest d20 result.

Caveat: there are definitely some Trained actions you simply have to be trained at (e.g. Borrow an Arcane spell)

However, I was told this wouldn't work because that means everyone could try those actions, thus watering down the requirement to actually be Trained in the required skill.

Thanks all.

[Rysky]

Create Forgery is for a whole document, but also yeah, with absolutely no Training or practice you can't copy someone else's handwriting and have it be believable.

Maneuver in Flight requires, well, flight, so not something a lot of characters have starting out.

For Disarm you needed the Feat to be decent and NOT provoke as well, just being Trained in Athletics (the barest of investments that covers a lot) lets you attempt this advanced maneuver.

Trained is... not a hurdle, so not really much to be concerned about honestly.

Even without your roll twice take the worst people not Trained or more in Athletics aren't gonna attempt a Disarm because they would absolutely fail miserably at it and they have much better things they could be doing.

[Kelseus]

Rysky wrote:

Trained is... not a hurdle, so not really much to be concerned about honestly.

This. Trained is the barest of investments in a skill. A level 1 PC is guaranteed to be trained in 6 skills and no other investment. That's before the Ancestry Lore feats, any positive Int bonus, extra skill training from multiclassing/archetypes.

Really, gating a very few actions behind trained is not really burden on any PC that has any interest in those type of actions. If your PC has any interest in using Disarm, why aren't they at least trained in Athletics? (That's before we talk about how you should be trained in Athletic anyways b/c you need to be able to climb/swim).

You only have to maneuver in flight if you are doing something like a hair-pin turn or something like that.

From an RP standpoint it makes sense, without the basic training, I can't even try to do an Olympic style back flip, or deftly wrench a sword from someone's hand.

[Malgwyn]

Thanks both for the replies.

[Gisher]

Elves have the Ancestral Longevity feat that lets you choose a skill to be trained in each day. If you are worried about leaving skills untrained, this feat gives you some flexibility.

[Malgwyn]

Thanks Gisher

[Malgwyn]

Page 275: Flexible
The armor is flexible enough that it doesn’t hinder most actions. You don’t apply its check penalty to Acrobatics or Athletics checks.

But it still applies to Str and Dex checks?

[Zaister]

Malgwyn wrote:

Page 275: Flexible

The armor is flexible enough that it doesn’t hinder most actions. You don’t apply its check penalty to Acrobatics or Athletics checks.

But it still applies to Str and Dex checks?

There is no such thing as an ability check in PF2.

[Malgwyn]

How would you go about performing feats of strength? Rolling Athletics?

[Nefreet]

Athletics is the only Strength based Skill.

The DC system in PF2 isn't built for handling an Ability check (which was common in PF1).

But in a "feat of strength" skill challenge, you might offer the party some alternative options in addition to Athletics, like a manual labor type of Lore, or a Fortitude save to endure their way through.

[Kasoh]

Or just tell the player to roll a d20 and add their strength modifier and any bonuses from feats or spells you feel are appropriate.

The world isn't going to end if you do that.

[HammerJack]

The world won't end, no, but using Athletics instead of a stat with no skill is what DC guidelines are all based around, so if you ulmade the mistake of using those guidelines without a skill, you'd create incredibly difficult or impossible tasks.

And, for how it relates to the original question, there aren't any mechanics written for armor check penalty affecting that sort of check, because the system isn't written with the idea that attribute-only checks are a thing.

[Nefreet]

It goes without saying that any GM can houserule however they want.

But if you're allowing, say, the +1 Str Wizard, who's Untrained in Athletics (and thus won't have any Athletics Feats), to roll a "Str check" against a level appropriate DC, there's a good chance they're going to Crit Fail, and possibly cause the whole party to fail the challenge.

Better to use the system in place, which is to offer the player an alternative skill at a higher DC.

[Kelseus]

Needs to be in the Rules forum

[Malgwyn]

I'm still not sure of what to do. Say a fighter (or any class) wants to try and open the stuck door (the wood's gotten damp and expanded a little into its frame). For argument's sake, the DC is 20.

What would I roll?

[HammerJack]

Athletics

[Malgwyn]

Ok, thank you.

[Captain Morgan]

In fact, I've seen that exact scenario used in an AP with a DC 18 athletics check.

[Gisher]

Malgwyn wrote:

I'm still not sure of what to do. Say a fighter (or any class) wants to try and open the stuck door (the wood's gotten damp and expanded a little into its frame). For argument's sake, the DC is 20.

What would I roll?

CRB, p. 515 wrote:

Doors

Opening an unlocked door requires an Interact action (or more than one for a particularly complicated or large door). Stuck doors must be Forced Open, and locked ones require a character to Pick the Lock or Force them Open.

As others have said, you would be using an athletics check. Specifically, you would be using the Force Open action which is an untrained athletics action. A crowbar is part of my standard list of gear to avoid that -2 penalty.

[Malgwyn]

That's great, thank you very much

[Malgwyn]

Weapon/Armour Proficiencies

How do they work, exactly?

I was creating a wizard character and was told I'm Trained in simple weapons, but, is there anything stopping a wizard from taking and using a battle axe?

Similarly, it says wizards are Trained in Unamoured, but could they take/use heavy armour?

I did look for the information but couldn't find it.

[Arcaian]

Malgwyn wrote:

Weapon/Armour Proficiencies

How do they work, exactly?

I was creating a wizard character and was told I'm Trained in simple weapons, but, is there anything stopping a wizard from taking and using a battle axe?

Similarly, it says wizards are Trained in Unamoured, but could they take/use heavy armour?

I did look for the information but couldn't find it.

When trained in something, you have a proficiency modifier of your level+2; if you're untrained, you have no proficiency modifier. THis means that a 1st level wizard will have an attack bonus equal to 3+(str/dex) for a weapon they're trained in, or just their strength for that battleaxe - and the untrained weapon gets less effective of you level up very quickly. Similarly with armour, you add your proficiency - so if you're unarmoured, you'll have an AC of 10 + 3 (proficiency) + dex, whereas in heavy armour you'd be at an AC of 15; by level 5, you'd be at an AC of 10 + 8 (proficiency) + dex when unarmoured, but still at an AC of 15 in your heavy armour. You'd also (presumably) have the penalties of wearing heavy armour with insufficient strength - a 10-foot penalty to your move speed, and a significant penalty to some skill checks.

In terms of where you'd find this information, the rules on attack rolls and armour class are the key locations.

[Nefreet]

And to illustrate wielding a Battle Axe using a few 1st-level Class examples,

• A Wizard would have a +0 Proficiency modifier (Untrained)
• A Magus would have a +3 Proficiency modifier (Trained)
• A Fighter would have a +5 Proficiency modifier (Expert)

Furthermore, the highest Strength modifier that a Wizard could have at 1st level is +3. The other two Classes can start with +4.

So while nothing is stopping your Wizard from picking up and using a Battle Axe, they're not going to be very good at it.

Against a CR1 creature like a Wolf, AC15, a Str16 Wizard needs to roll a 12 on a d20 to Succeed, and can only Critically Succeed on a natural 20. But the Str18 Fighter Succeeds on a roll of a 6, and can Critically Succeed on a 16 or higher.

[HumbleGamer]

Malgwyn wrote:

Weapon/Armour Proficiencies

How do they work, exactly?

I was creating a wizard character and was told I'm Trained in simple weapons, but, is there anything stopping a wizard from taking and using a battle axe?

Similarly, it says wizards are Trained in Unamoured, but could they take/use heavy armour?

I did look for the information but couldn't find it.

Wizard is probably the worst example ever for weapon proficiency, but you can get access to different weapons if you get the right feats.

Keeping in mind that a wizard won't ever be good as a martial combatant

Quote:

- 6/hp lvl vs 10/hplvl
- Bad saving throws ( and saving throws progression )
- Bad attack ( expert by lvl 11, and that's it )
- Not able to start with 18 STR or DEX ( starting from 16 at max, renouncing to other useful stats )
- No general weapon proficiency apart from specific simple weapons
- No armor proficiency

A wizard might expend a general feat to get some weapon proficiency, for example through the weapon proficiency general feat

Quote:

You become trained in all simple weapons. If you were already trained in all simple weapons, you become trained in all martial weapons. If you were already trained in all martial weapons, you become trained in one advanced weapon of your choice.

Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you do, you become trained in additional weapons as appropriate, following the above progression.

which lasts until lvl 11.

Past lvl 11, you'll remain trained in those weapons ( and become expert in the ones from the wizard class ).

You might consider different feats, like ancestry feats ( Dwarven/Elven/Halfling/Gnome/Etc... Weapon Familiarity ) which allow you to get a specific group of weapons, and those weapons will scale with your weapon proficiency ( eventually through the right lvl 13 ancestry feat, depends the class ).

Unconventional weaponry also could give you access to a single weapon, but you'll have to stick with some limits

Quote:

You've familiarized yourself with a particular weapon, potentially from another ancestry or culture. Choose an uncommon simple or martial weapon with a trait corresponding to an ancestry (such as dwarf, goblin, or orc) or that is common in another culture. You gain access to that weapon, and for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a simple weapon.

If you are trained in all martial weapons, you can choose an uncommon advanced weapon with such a trait. You gain access to that weapon, and for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a martial weapon.

Little ot for the armors, which works in the same way ( general feats ), and won't go past trained proficiency.

Archetypes and dedication might ( depends the type ) give you a proficiency which scales with your other proficiency, for example the sentinel one for armors, and the mauler one for 2handed weapons, IIRC.

Shortly, you can get almost everything you want.
How much you are going to pay for it, and how "effective" would your character be, depends how you get those perks, your class, your stats, and so on.

[breithauptclan]

To try and generalize what people have already said:

The reason that we don't use just ability modifiers for checks is because it doesn't include the character's level.

There are other things that can be used in place of a skill though. Saving throw bonus, Spell Attack bonus, Attack bonus, even Class DC can be converted back to a bonus to a d20 roll. And all of these have a full proficiency rating to them - which will include the UTEML modifier and character level.

[Gisher]

Malgwyn wrote:

Weapon/Armour Proficiencies

How do they work, exactly?

I was creating a wizard character and was told I'm Trained in simple weapons, but, is there anything stopping a wizard from taking and using a battle axe?

Similarly, it says wizards are Trained in Unamoured, but could they take/use heavy armour?

I did look for the information but couldn't find it.

You might find my Proficiency Bonus Charts useful for getting a handle on the proficiency system. I find it helpful to see such things laid out in a graphical format.

Your Wizard can use a battle axe or heavy armor, but being untrained means you have a proficiency bonus of 0 no matter what level they are. (See my first chart.)

As others have pointed out, there are feats (ancestry, general, and archetype) that can get you trained or better in various weapons. (Viking Shieldbearer can get you trained with a battle axe and gain you the valuable Shield Block reaction at the same time.)

Side note: Wizards are normally only trained in the club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff, and not in all Simple Weapons so you might want to double-check that.

[Malgwyn]

Thanks all for the replies, I appreciate it!

I used the wizard because they are so diametrically contrasting compared to fighters when it comes to melee combat.

As far as weapon/armour proficiencies, initially, I couldn't understand why the wizard was any worse off than the fighter if both classes (and all other classes for that matter) gained skill increases at the same rate.

Upon cross-referencing the two classes, initial skill proficiencies dictate that wizards are playing catchup right from level 1, and that's what constitutes the biggest impact on the respective classes' martial aptitude?

[Nefreet]

Malgwyn wrote:

As far as weapon/armour proficiencies, initially, I couldn't understand why the wizard was any worse off than the fighter if both classes (and all other classes for that matter) gained skill increases at the same rate.

Just checking to be sure you're aware, but a Skill Increase only increases your Proficiency with a Skill. Not any Proficiency with Armor or Weapons.

Malgwyn wrote:

Upon cross-referencing the two classes, initial skill proficiencies dictate that wizards are playing catchup right from level 1, and that's what constitutes the biggest impact on the respective classes' martial aptitude?

Wizards (typically) have more Skills Trained at 1st Level because their Intelligence bonus is (usually) higher than that of (most) Fighters.

Or maybe you can elaborate more on what you mean?

[Nefreet]

What makes a Wizard less "martial" than a Fighter is their Initial Proficiencies:

Wizard wrote:

Attacks

Trained in the club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff
Trained in unarmed attacks

Defenses
Untrained in all armor
Trained in unarmored defense

Fighter wrote:

Attacks

Expert in simple weapons
Expert in martial weapons
Trained in advanced weapons
Expert in unarmed attacks

Defenses
Trained in all armor
Trained in unarmored defense

[Errenor]

Malgwyn wrote:

As far as weapon/armour proficiencies, initially, I couldn't understand why the wizard was any worse off than the fighter if both classes (and all other classes for that matter) gained skill increases at the same rate.

Skill increases don't increase weapon/armor proficiencies. Skills are those and only those: Acrobatics | Arcana | Athletics | Crafting | Deception | Diplomacy | Intimidation | Lore | Medicine | Nature | Occultism | Performance | Religion | Society | Stealth | Survival | Thievery.

It's very hard to increase weapon/armor proficiencies (or very easy, but you can't do it at will): they are increased at selected levels for each class automatically.
Also there are several Archetypes which help (you need to spend class feats for them).
And several ancestry and general feats but I vaguely remember that nothing of these increases the proficiences past Expert, if even that. Actually I've seen them only giving Trained and linking some weapons to your class progression.