Can I fire multiple Scorching Rays (from having a higher caster level) and then restealth (snipe)?
You blast your enemies with a searing beam of fire. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage. The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Action
The reason I ask is because during my research I found this FAQ
Ranged Touch Attack Spells and AOOs: When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events.
(Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.
So to repeat my initial question, can I fire multiple Scorching Rays (from having a higher caster level) and then restealth (snipe)?
I think not... even though Scortching Ray's rays all fire at the same time, they each require their own attack roll, and thus do not qualify for Sniping's "one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again"... but I could be wrong.
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You can apply sneak attack damage to only one of the rays of scorching ray.
Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).
posted June 2013 | back to top
You can apply sneak attack damage to only one of the rays of scorching ray.
Believe it or not, I am actually not trying to exploit sneak attack. I ask the question because my DM has ruled that Visions of Madness works like Scorching Ray. I genuinely just want to plan a stealth Cleric. That FAQ is very interesting though. Classifying it as simultaneous
I think this is one of the examples of rules being written with assumptions. Since sniping is a move action, with weapons, you can (usually) only make a single attack that turn anyway, and therefore that's what the text talks about. You can see the same thing happen in the Vital Strike description, where the text "you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus" is utterly redundant. Also compare this post by SKR about Animal Fury, which as written has a -5 penalty even when used alongside only other natural attack, because the author was assuming that "Odds are, your barbarian is still using weapons". Sniping makes the exact same assumption.
I think the text isn't there to set a limit to one attack, but rather to make clear that you can't combine it with a full-attack action.
Sniping is actually a full round action for a single attack role, meaning it occludes spellcasting by RAW. The difference between sniping from concealment and simply regular standard attacking from concealment and then moving to get an unpenalized stealth check is that people never realize you were there with the snipe, whereas they saw you stand up and fire (granted they couldn't react yet) and then walk away if you didn't snipe. It also means you have to totally break LoS in order to stealth again.
One can make the realism argument a "ray of fire" is too unobvious to not have seen where it came from, but either way, all spells are inherently not able to be sniped with because they aren't attacks to cast them.
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You can apply sneak attack damage to only one of the rays of scorching ray.
Believe it or not, I am actually not trying to exploit sneak attack. I ask the question because my DM has ruled that Visions of Madness works like Scorching Ray. I genuinely just want to plan a stealth Cleric. That FAQ is very interesting though. Classifying it as simultaneous
I think you wanted to link the Madness domain, not the deity (I didn't know it, interesting, BTW).
Madness domainVision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack.
The problem is that Vison of madness is a melee touch attack, Sniping requires you to be at least 10' from your target and make a ranged attack:
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again.
If you have a way to make Vision of madness a ranged attack I agree with Derklord, you can use it with sniping.
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Sniping is actually a full round action for a single attack role, meaning it occludes spellcasting by RAW.
On what basis?
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
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Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Standard + Move action =/= Full round action
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Sniping is actually a full round action for a single attack role, meaning it occludes spellcasting by RAW. The difference between sniping from concealment and simply regular standard attacking from concealment and then moving to get an unpenalized stealth check is that people never realize you were there with the snipe, whereas they saw you stand up and fire (granted they couldn't react yet) and then walk away if you didn't snipe. It also means you have to totally break LoS in order to stealth again.
One can make the realism argument a "ray of fire" is too unobvious to not have seen where it came from, but either way, all spells are inherently not able to be sniped with because they aren't attacks to cast them.
But you make a ranged touch ATTACK to hit with rays.
I think you wanted to link the Madness domain, not the deity (I didn't know it, interesting, BTW).
Madness domain
The link was right. My terminology was wrong. I meant to refer to the Collective Visions Evangelist Boon
When using the vision of madness granted power from the Madness domain, you can target creatures within 30 feet of you instead of having to touch a single target. You can target a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 for every 4 Hit Dice you have (maximum 5). If you don’t have access to the Madness domain, you instead gain the ability to use the basic version of the vision of madness granted power, touching a single target as a melee touch attack, a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier, as listed in the vision of madness description.
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I think you wanted to link the Madness domain, not the deity (I didn't know it, interesting, BTW).
Madness domainThe link was right. My terminology was wrong. I meant to refer to the Collective Visions Evangelist Boon
When using the vision of madness granted power from the Madness domain, you can target creatures within 30 feet of you instead of having to touch a single target. You can target a maximum number of creatures equal to 1 for every 4 Hit Dice you have (maximum 5). If you don’t have access to the Madness domain, you instead gain the ability to use the basic version of the vision of madness granted power, touching a single target as a melee touch attack, a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier, as listed in the vision of madness description.
so it changes it from a touch attack to a targeted ability without an attack roll?
so it changes it from a touch attack to a targeted ability without an attack roll?
It is very ambiguous. This is what my DM and I agreed to
1. It remains a standard action
2. RAW it is still a Touch, RAI it is ranged touch. We will use range
3. It is multiple attack rolls
4. The same buff/debuff must be applied to each ranged attack in a the simultaneous action
Sniping is actually a full round action for a single attack role, meaning it occludes spellcasting by RAW.On what basis?
Standard + Move action =/= Full round actionSniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
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Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
I stand corrected, it's effectively a full round action, but you can sub any standard for the standard attack action. There's still the issue of said multiple attacks, and you're still using an ability with obviousness factors (such as speaking to cast). I don't think however that even if you fired a silent+still fireball you would be allowed the stealth to snipe, so I don't think I would allow a scorching ray either just because you have to aim the ray more carefully than the ball.
But to the actual question for the OP, the Madness ability isn't a ray even, its targeted, you just select the people you want to affect and it does. It's also supernatural, meaning you don't make noise or have to move, so you don't even risk breaking stealth.