Dispel magic and permancy

[drsparnum]

A level 14 druid casts greater magic fang on a level 10 wizard. The wizard then casts permancy on the greater magic fang effect. Tomorrow an enemy casts dispel magic. What is the relevant caster level for greater magic fang, 10 or 14? 10 right?

[Mysterious Stranger]

It depends on how you want to cast it.

Unless you are targeting a specific spell the roll for dispel magic is compared to the spell with the highest caster level first. If you don’t dispel that spell it is compared to the spell with the next highest caster level. You keep going until you dispel a spell or fail to dispel any of the target's spells. When using this option, you don’t choose which spell is dispelled. You use the same roll for every spell and don’t get to roll each check separately.

I you target a particular spell you only check vs that spell. If you fail the roll, there is no further checks for other spells. If you use this option, you can target whichever spell you want. If you dispel the Permanency and the normal duration of the spell has expired, it will also stop working. If the other spell still has any duration left it will continue to function

The first option gives you more than one chance to end the spell but has a chance of ending a different spell. Let’s say the target had the spell Magic Aura cast by a 12th level wizard in addition to the spells listed. You roll your dispel magic check and it is not high enough to end the magic fang, but is high enough to end the Magic Aura, it would end that and not even check for the Permanency.

[Chell Raighn]

It is as MS said above…

But to answer the original question… Magic Fang would still be caster level 14. Permanency, on the otherhand, is CL 10.

When a spell is permanencied you are left with two active spell effects. The original spell cast and permanency. When dispel is cast it needs only dispel one of the two spells. Remember permanency has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous. It remains in effect after cast.

[Diego Rossi]

drsparnum wrote:

A level 14 druid casts greater magic fang on a level 10 wizard. The wizard then casts permancy on the greater magic fang effect. Tomorrow an enemy casts dispel magic. What is the relevant caster level for greater magic fang, 10 or 14? 10 right?

A little nitpick: to make Magic Fang, Greater permanent you need an 11th level caster.

Some permanent spells require a Dispel Magic with a CL higher than the caster of permanency to cancel them, but only those that are cast on the caster of permanency:

Quote:

You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Spell Minimum Caster Level GP Cost
Arcane sight 11th 7,500 gp
Comprehend languages 9th 2,500 gp
Darkvision 10th 5,000 gp
Detect magic 9th 2,500 gp
Read magic 9th 2,500 gp
See invisibility 10th 5,000 gp
Tongues 11th 7,500 gp

You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

Quote:

Spells cast on other targets are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal. The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.

The wording is somewhat awkward, as verbatim, if you cast a spell that isn't in the first list but is in the second list on yourself and make it permanent, it doesn't fall under the first condition, nor under the second, there is no instruction on how it works.

As I read it, the RAI is that permanency on all the spells that aren't in the first list can be Dispelled even by a lower CL caster.

[Tharkon]

Another little nitpick.
You can't cast permanency on spells that you haven't cast yourself.

Quote:

You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.

So unless you are using potions or scrolls (yes, you can create a scroll of permanency) or some feat is affecting the caster level of some spells but not others, the caster level of both spells is usually the same, since they are cast by the same caster at the same time.

The difference between the first and second list is only in the target of the spell, the caster of the spell must still be yourself.

[drsparnum]

Tharkon I don't think that is correct. Permancey is a wizard spell and magic fang is a druid spell, but the game clearly intends for it to be possible to permancey magic fang without anything outside of the core rulebook.

[Mysterious Stranger]

You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.

The description is not absolutely clear that the permanency has to be cast by you. If it had stated “You first cast the desired spell and then you follow it with the permanency spell.”, that would indicate that both spells have to be cast by the same caster. Without that second you there it is not clear if a second caster can provide the permanency. As drsparnum points out the original list included at least one spell not on the wizards spell list.

[Azothath]

Scribe Scroll feat and using a Magic Item: Scroll{Spell Completion}, process: Decipher, Activate{3 requirements +CL Auto or Check(s)}, then Effect.

Permanency:U5(arcanist, psychic, sorcerer, wizard) and In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).{list}.
I'm going to add that the minimum caster requirement is on the caster of the Permanency and not on the original spell.

Magic Fang:T1(druid, hunter, ranger, spiritualist, summoner, uch summoner) Rng:touch. Thus Magic Fang can be made Dur:perm on the Permanency caster or another by a caster of Permanency.

The question is who casts the Magic Fang? There is not any spell list crossover. In this case one has to assume that for this (second) list it may be another caster.

There should be 2 DCs to track, one for the original spell and one for the Permanency. The Permanency spell verbiage implies there is only one DC (one d20 roll) to dispel and one has to assume it is the DC for the First Spell Cast (not the Permanency). Why? Two things; The last line of the spell description in Permanency ("as normal") which implies the first spell is being dispelled. IF it were the Permanency being dispelled then the text would say something like "if the Permanency is dispelled then the first|original spell ends|is dispelled". The last argument is that the Permanency spell description itself says it sets the duration of the First Spell cast to permanent (it doesn't change the CL of the First Spell cast).
This implies that Casting Magic Fang 1@1 and then Permanency 5@9 means for a Dispel Magic the CL Check is verses a CL=1!

For the Original post example the CL of the first spell(not the Permanency) is set at 14, which sets the CL Check for the Dispel.

[Azothath]

Azothath wrote:

Scribe Scroll feat and using a Magic Item: Scroll{Spell Completion}, process: Decipher, Activate{3 requirements +CL Auto or Check(s)}, then Effect. ...

Scribe Scroll does open it up for casters to use Class Abilities and Feats which affect scroll use (not on their class lists).

[Senko]

I now find myself pondering the implications of a mage having permanency remain but the spell it made permanent dispelled . . .

[Azothath]

Commentary

Senko wrote:

I now find myself pondering the implications of a mage having permanency remain but the spell it made permanent dispelled . . .

I get it, but after reading the Permanency spell description it was the logical conclusion. I assume tracking 2 spells was too much as then the First Spell's duration would start to count down if the Permanency was dispelled(or something of the sort). At 9+CL the spell description table is really just setting the cost and gatekeeping a few effects. Disjunction is the actual painful spell as mucho gold can be lost (or consider it the cost of enchanting an item is lost).

I've used it in games over the years and it's a handy way to make a cheap one trick magic item that you can store in a bag or on a spell focus item.

Tactically Dispel Magic & Grt Disp Mag is not a good combat option unless you have identified specific magical effects that you want to suppress(more likely) or dispel and basically that means True Sight or Arcane Sight has to up first.