In the game I am in, the party has reached level 12. I am playing a solider. The feat "Penetrating Attack" seems cool. I was wondering though if an enemy/target has a ER/DR of 0 would my attacks treat it as -5 ER/DR thus allowing me to deal more damage. Did I forget/overlook a rule somewhere that states that ER/DR cannot be lower than 0?
You cannot lower damage reduction or energy resistance that doesn't exist past non-existence.
In the game I am in, the party has reached level 12. I am playing a solider. The feat "Penetrating Attack" seems cool. I was wondering though if an enemy/target has a ER/DR of 0 would my attacks treat it as -5 ER/DR thus allowing me to deal more damage. Did I forget/overlook a rule somewhere that states that ER/DR cannot be lower than 0?
I'm struggling to think of where in the rules it is, but if you reduce a creature's DR/ER to zero or less, they are treated as if they don't have DR/ER against that attack. You can't have a negative DR/ER, and creatures without it in the first place are obviously not affected by penetrating attack.
Thank you Milo v3 and Garretmander!
I do wish it could of worked like I had hoped. Nonetheless good to know DR/ER can't actually go below zero. I might still take the feat since not many in my group do not have a way to over come DR/ER.
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Thank you Milo v3 and Garretmander!
I do wish it could of worked like I had hoped. Nonetheless good to know DR/ER can't actually go below zero. I might still take the feat since not many in my group do not have a way to over come DR/ER.
At the level it's taken, it's a very good feat, because enemies start having a variety of DR/ER as standard.
I find the value to be so-so.
I generally like to purchase a weapon that has two different energy types (you should always use energy weapons because EAC is 2 points lower than KAC on average). And then on top of that you purchase a weapon fusion of another energy type. Weapon fusions replace half your damage with that energy type. And every time you activate it you can change which half of the base damage you replace. This allows you to get around energy resistances pretty easily.
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You should NOT always use energy weapons because EAC is just as often 1 point lower than KAC as it is 2 points on published monsters, "average" depends entirely on what you're facing, but in any case KAC weapons usually do enough extra damage to make up for the accuracy loss. It depends on level and the exact weapons you're comparing. At level 20 the KAC weapons clearly beat the most comparable EAC weapons (74 damage on the longarm projectiles vs 58.5 on the laser rifle, even at 85% damage, the worst possible difference you're likely to face, the projectile is doing 62.9 and beating the laser).
At lower levels it depends, but don't fall for EAC absolutist propaganda, they're just trying to sell you batteries and push their technofascist agenda!
Weapon fusions swapping half your damage are only useful for being terrible rather than futile against immune creatures. They are not actually good against resistance, which you will still face. They are worse if you somehow trick yourself into attacking something resistant to both your damage types.
You can carry a bad alternate energy weapon to use in place of your weak primary energy weapon in place of a good projectile weapon with feats or soldier gear boosts to overcome DR. You can, but you should not. The better your accuracy the more projectile weapons beat energy weapons in expected damage, get sharpshooting with those gunner's harness reaction cannons.
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AA1 EAC/KAC differences. Where an entry had two subentries, but they had the same KAC bonus I only listed them once, this throws off the averages and numbers slightly but not enough to change things, I think.
The average of the below is 1.29. The frequency:
+3 - 3
+2 - 28
+1 - 29
+0 - 5
-1 - 3
-2 - 1
Let us please dispense with the misconception that the average difference between EAC and KAC is 2. It is 1 as often as it is 2, and it is equally or easier to hit KAC more often three times more frequently(!) than KAC exceeds EAC more than 2. Perhaps these ratios drastically changed in later AAs or in APs, but I doubt it.
Projectile weapons are overall your best bet if they do more damage, the accuracy penalty is overblown.
Aeon Guard +3 (this AC is all FUBAR and breaks the rules, btw)
AHAV +2
Anacite Laborer +1
Anacite Wingbot +2
Angel Barrachius +1
Apari +2
Assembly Ooze +1
Asteray +1
Barathu +1
Bloodbrother +1
Bryrvath +1
Caypin +2
Contemplative -1 (that's not a typo, kac is lower than eac)
Crest eater +3
Deh-nolo +1
Devil, endbringer +2
Draelik +1
Dragon +2
Drow +2
Electrovore +0
Elemental +2
Ellicoth +2
Formian Laborer +1
Formain Warrior +3
Frujai colony/soldier +2
Goblin +1
Gray +0
Haan +1
Hallajin -1 (still not a typo)
Hesper -1 (still not a typo)
Ikeshti broodminder +1
Ikeshti Rivener +2
Inevitable Anhamut +1
Kalo sharkunter +1
Kalo deepspeaker +0
Ksarik +2
Kyokor +2
Maraquoi hunter +2
Maraquoi shaman +1
Marooned one +2
Mountain eel +2
Necrovite +1
Nihili +2
Nuar enforcer +2
Nuar Specialist +1
Oma +1
Orocoran +2
Orocoran Ichor Lord +1
Reptoid +1
Reptoid master +2
Robot, observer class +1
Robot, patrol class +2
Ryphorian +1
Sarcesian +1
Scavenger Slime +2
Sharpwing +2
Shobad +0
Shobhad warleader +1
Skittermander +1
Surnoch +2
Swarm +2
Symbiend +0
Symbiend, Damoritosh's host +2
Undead minion +2
Urog +1
Verthani +1
Void Hag +2
Witchwyrd -2 (oof!)
Wrikreechee +1
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Ran the EAC/KAC differences on AA2 to see if the philosophy shifted once the game got settled. A bit! This time and on subsequent AA analyses I am counting every individual creature, even if both had the same AC difference, unless it's something like the dinosaurs, herd animals, or vermin that have 4 entries that all have the same AC difference - those I counted once.
Average KAC is 1.46 higher than EAC.
Frequency:
+4: 1 (glass serpent really doesn't like lasers)
+3: 4
+2: 43
+1: 44
+0: 6
-1: 1
They cut back on creatures with KAC lower than EAC significantly, but it's still an even break between KAC +1 and KAC +2, with KAC even or better than EAC still outnumbering KAC +3 aliens.
Conclusion: lasers are for wimps afraid of glory, who would rather say they missed one fewer shot out of thirty than actually kill anything.
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AA3.
KAC average 1.45 higher than EAC.
Frequency:
+3: 1
+2: 50
+1: 55
0: 2
I think I personally prefer a EAC weapon on a non combat class (Not full BAB) as that 1-2 difference helps, I do prefer the idea of Slug throwers (Or arrows) for a large Gun user (Except my Mechanic, she likes Plasma, its Vesk). Nice to know the rough numbers generated here.
Interesting. Something to think of as well. I've had my soldier sticking with energy lately mainly because I don't trust my die rolls that much and plasma is kind'a neat. Then again, my prior character was a mechanic so hitting wasn't all that easy. Still, I'm wondering if going full attack with energy is better overall than slugthrowing. (And then there's paying per round for bullets ... )
You should NOT always use energy weapons because EAC is just as often 1 point lower than KAC as it is 2 points on published monsters, "average" depends entirely on what you're facing, but in any case KAC weapons usually do enough extra damage to make up for the accuracy loss. It depends on level and the exact weapons you're comparing. At level 20 the KAC weapons clearly beat the most comparable EAC weapons (74 damage on the longarm projectiles vs 58.5 on the laser rifle, even at 85% damage, the worst possible difference you're likely to face, the projectile is doing 62.9 and beating the laser).
At lower levels it depends, but don't fall for EAC absolutist propaganda, they're just trying to sell you batteries and push their technofascist agenda!
Weapon fusions swapping half your damage are only useful for being terrible rather than futile against immune creatures. They are not actually good against resistance, which you will still face. They are worse if you somehow trick yourself into attacking something resistant to both your damage types.
You can carry a bad alternate energy weapon to use in place of your weak primary energy weapon in place of a good projectile weapon with feats or soldier gear boosts to overcome DR. You can, but you should not. The better your accuracy the more projectile weapons beat energy weapons in expected damage, get sharpshooting with those gunner's harness reaction cannons.
A point you are missing in this equation is that of vulnerability. Usually this happens uncommonly enough that you have to either have really good divination access to be able to work this, or have some form of heavy plot foreshadowing, though there is one campaign, Dawn of Flame, where you can count on the majority of your enemies to have vulnerability to cold. If you have the means to match energy type to vulnerability, the damage numbers skew the other way. Admittedly hard to pull off in most cases, but if you are aware that you will be facing a given type of enemy, and said enemy has a vulnerability to an energy type, you would be foolish not to exploit it. (You would also be foolish not to expect the enemy to have some sort of protection against its weakness, but those can also be worked around with planning.)
My perception is that resistance to physical damage is more common than resistance/immunity to multiple energy types, so the multi type energy weapons plus fusion is a really good way to get around it, as well as occasionally activating energy vulnerabilities.
Also, I don't think I've played a Starfinder campaign that went beyond level 13, so the weapons haven't had a chance to be too far apart in average damage dice.
Also energy weapons are cooler than kinetic weapons. It's simply a rule of the universe ;)
A point you are missing in this equation is that of vulnerability. Usually this happens uncommonly enough that you have to either have really good divination access to be able to work this, or have some form of heavy plot foreshadowing, though there is one campaign, Dawn of Flame, where you can count on the majority of your enemies to have vulnerability to cold. If you have the means to match energy type to vulnerability, the damage numbers skew the other way. Admittedly hard to pull off in most cases, but if you are aware that you will be facing a given type of enemy,...
This is very true of Dawn of Flame or a robot centric campaign. I looked up all the non-AP aliens with vulnerabilities and found the below. Robots aside cold is by a fair amount the most common vulnerability, possibly explaining why its damage numbers are otherwise so inexplicably lower than other energy types. Between electricity on robots, electricity on a few other things, and fire on a fair number of things maybe this also explains why plasma is generally disappointing outside of line/explode/blast applications.
Of course cold/fire vulnerability is also often the flip side of immunity to the other.
Overall, while you could carry a golf bag of relatively weak energy weapons to hurt your action economy to draw them as needed to exploit vulnerabilities or avoid immunities/resistances, it's just going to be better overall to invest in a feat to avoid/reduce DR and use the most damaging weapon type even after accounting for accuracy - kinetic. (Or the master energy type, sonic, which has a few vulnerability applications and relatively few resistances with no(?) immunities.)
The exception is going to be AOE stuff like line, blast, explode. The projectile options in those categories are generally few or disappointing, and automatic isn't a great substitute.
AA1: Assembly Oooze, Bloodbrother, Byrvath, Hallajin, Hesper, Security Robot, Red dragon, white dragon, fire elemental, cyber zombie.
AA2: Cerebric Fungus, Metallic Dragon, Garaggakal, Glitch Gremlin, Moonflower, Ravai, Assassin Robot, Siege Robot, Shipmind, Solar Wisp
AA3: Flayer Leech, Irokiroi, Kothama, Guardian Robot, Keeper Robot
AA4: Animated Quartz Swarm, Cloud Ray, Gray Goo, Grioth, Harpy Jasmine, Ignurso, Khulan, Robot Dragon (assorted), Infiltration Robot, Skarak, Sombrian, Thermatrod
My perception is that resistance to physical damage is more common than resistance/immunity to multiple energy types, so the multi type energy weapons plus fusion is a really good way to get around it, as well as occasionally activating energy vulnerabilities.
Also, I don't think I've played a Starfinder campaign that went beyond level 13, so the weapons haven't had a chance to be too far apart in average damage dice.
Also energy weapons are cooler than kinetic weapons. It's simply a rule of the universe ;)
I'm not sure physical resistance is more common than energy resistance/immunity. Certainly PC type races are a lot more likely to have energy resitance than kinetic DR.
I do think the damage differences are probably pretty modest until higher levels.
Yeah, I think the main thing to me is, since I've mostly played at lower to mid levels, the difference in damage dice just isn't huge. So hitting or missing makes for a much bigger observable difference in damage that's hard to make up.
Unless you keep a running tally of all the damage you've ever done, it's kind of hard to talk about beyond session by session perception.
Yeah, I think the main thing to me is, since I've mostly played at lower to mid levels, the difference in damage dice just isn't huge. So hitting or missing makes for a much bigger observable difference in damage that's hard to make up.
Unless you keep a running tally of all the damage you've ever done, it's kind of hard to talk about beyond session by session perception.
Likewise. Plus, my first impression was as a mechanic with a rifle. I did get a few lucky crits, but anyone can get one five percent of the time anyway. Otherwise, I felt like I was struggling until I got my hands on a laser rifle.