
Waldham |

Hello, I want to create a specific kind of ghoul and I would to have an help to determine the level of this creature.
Stats from a normal ghoul.
This ghoul is mindless, immune to bleed damage, non lethal attacks and fatigued condition but not immunities from disease and poison.
A ghoul breathe and so can suffocate or drowning and has need to eat.
A ghoul can be killed by decapitation.
Sunlight vulnerability : A ghoul caught in sunlight falls asleep and dreams about the own live earlier before it rises as a ghoul and taking an almost identical appearance.
If a creature dies after being reduced to 0 HP by a bite from a ghoul,the creature is rising as a ghoul immediately (Saving Throw Fortitude DC 15).
No paralysis abilty.
A ghoul is stupid, a ghoul can't cast a spell or attempt an ambush.
Thanks for your future help.

HammerJack |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

I believe that you are doing this backwards. Building creatures, you don't really start with what abilities you want them to have and ask what level it should be, you determine what level of threat you want it to be, and give it stats appropriate to its level, and the abilities and weaknesses it needs to have to fit the narrative.

breithauptclan |

It is more of an advice question than a rules question. But people miscategorize things all the time.
But yes, the Building Creatures guidelines are what you are going to be looking for.

![]() |
I agree with HammerJack. It is best to start with the level of the creature and assign the stats. A Lv 5 homebrew Ghoul will have very different stats than a level 2 version.
Overall your concept is fairly sound, but I would be very hesitant of an ability that can add an extra enemy creature in the middle of combat. As a dead player (or NPC) can radically shift the encounter into deadly territory due to a few unfortunate rolls.
If you use the base stats from the lv 1 ghoul, may take is your creature is slightly weaker. I would lower it to level 0 and reduce each stat by 1.

HumbleGamer |
Not being able to rely on the dying condition seems a little extreme.
Also, given the DC 15 I can assume the party will be low level, so unable to resurrect any member mutated into a ghoul.
Rather than making them raising as a ghoul, why not giving anybody hit by the bite the confusion condition or something similar?

Castilliano |

I think the name "ghouls" is a bit misleading since in RPGs it nearly always refers to undead, yet yours don't seem to be. Yours seem like diseased mutants (which is perfectly fine, but just to clarify; and for you to correct me if I'm wrong!). I believe Deadlands (a horror western RPG) has ghouls similar to yours as does real world literature; it being a useful description for cannibalistic humanoids. Plus all the other good names are taken too anyway!

Loreguard |

I agree with those who mention that creating new spawns, quickly in encounter is a very powerful ability. I agree about having it create a more minor version of the originating creature's level (perhaps the lessor two levels lower than either the creating ghoul, or level of the victim). That way it can't start taking out peasants and build an army from tons of week minions. I also don't know if I think it is at all a good idea about the rising immediately. I'd be tempted to have that be rare, perhaps only occurring on a critical failure on the saving throw against rising as a ghoul. (would make it possible, but uncommon) Otherwise, on a regular failure of the saving throw, the ghoul would rise 1d10 minutes later, probably after the fight has concluded.
An interesting option, might be to allow people who rise as a ghoul to be cured of the ghoul affliction and returned to normal life (despite almost having really died) if it is caught within x days, and some cure is administered while it is kept asleep in daylight for at least 8 hours.
I think humbleGamer is thinking you are saying if you go to 0 HP you have a chance to become a ghoul. I think that isn't what you meant so say, but it does bring forward that you may need to present your intent more clearly. (if others are to use it, and not just you, because you obviously know your intent)
I did have the question, does one only have a chance to rise as a ghoul if a ghoul bite was what took you from conscious to 0 HP and dying? I don't know if ghouls have the traditional claw attacks as well, if a ghoul attacks with its claws, taking down a foe, with it attack with its bite, and would that bite (foe already at 0) qualify the foe for rising later, after the target reaches dying 4.
You mention that your ghouls are mindless, but call them stupid, and mention them dreaming. I think rather than mindless you really seem like you are saying they are very limited animal intelligence, at the more vermin type level, than strictly mindless. You don't allow them to have class abilities from past life, and they don't really have tactics other than to shamble over near things to eat.
Your immunities seem reasonable enough: Bleed, non-lethal attacks, fatigue. With your immunity to bleed I question if they should have any resistance to any physical damage types. If so, probably small numbers, like 1 or 1/2 their level perhaps if you do. Probably unnecessary, but the immunity to bleed made me at least ask.
But I'd make a set of tiered Ghouls for your various levels,
If they are Mindless... what sense do they have? What drives them towards their food. Do they have lifesense and more towards living things and consume them if they don't pop up before they are done. Or do they use conventional senses and look for visual motion, noise, and/or smell to seek out their food.
Are they entirely carnivorous or do they consume all sorts of food, such as plants and such. And that question may also bring forward a question of if Leshey's are likely to be targeted by these ghouls. Mutant Ghouls that aren't undead and don't limit themselves to just animal/people as food, but who also consume the competing living beings foods might be an interesting difference. Throwing a large basket of fruit at a mob of ghouls and watching half of them stop and start tearing through the fruit seems an interesting scene that might otherwise be unexpected.
For ability bonuses, I'd stay low for most, maybe make CON high, perhaps moderate for STR or DEX. Depending on meaning of mindless, might go with Low Perception, but if they have acute senses and hunting animal instincts it might justify a moderate or high perception. I'd probably say use moderate or high for HP. Probably low for AC, indicating they prioritize satiating their hunger over avoiding pain, if they really understand that feeling. They'd probably have Low Will save, Moderate or low Reflex, and high fortitude, making a guess. Skills maybe might consider giving something other than low to Athletics or Acrobatics. Stealth, it sounds like your version of them aren't 'smart' enough to really be particularly stealthy. Survival might be something else they might get high or moderate skill for, and that might allow them to instinctively track a food source, for instance.
Attacks I'd probably use Moderate attack bonuses, and moderate damage for the bite as piercing damage, and low damage for claws as agile slashing damage.
Might have a variety of ghouls, each variety having a different special ability, be it being stronger, (with more strike damage or a power attack type strike) or a leap/jump attack, or maybe even a disguise ability, that when they aren't moving they re-form into normal non-ghoul like appearance similar to when asleep in daylight, and can then disguise themselves as being normal/asleep, potentially catching people off-base, thinking they might have found survivors.
That doesn't give you specific numbers, but you can look up the level you want, and check the tables and build the appropriate stats for a ghoul of that level. Examine the special abilities and make sure they seem appropriate and thematic.