So the green Poison wall is as follows:
Stops breath weapons.
Poison (Frequency: 1/rd. for 6 rd.; init. effect: death, sec. effect: 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves).So if the initial effect is Death or not poisoned on a successful save, what’s the point of the secondary effects if you would never feel it’s effects?
This follows the same rules as an Injury poison per Pathfinder ruleset, and by default Injury Poisons no onset + frequency 1/rd, but doing this with Initial: Death w/ Secondary: 1Con/rd makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, tbqh. Because if you fail the initial save on a poison with no onset, you're immediately affected by the initial effect (Death) and then have to make subsequent saves vs. the secondary effect, and since you're dead you auto-fail those saves and take -6 Con dmg (while dead). And if you Save the initial effect, you don't get afflicted with the poison at all, and the secondary effect is meaningless. This is dumb, tbh.
But if they were to switch them around, and give this Green poison an Initial Effect: 1Con/rd, Secondary Effect: Death, Onset none, Frequency 1/rd for 6 rd, then it would make a little more sense (but not much), because now you start taking Con loss every round if you fail the initial, and then if you fail either of the next two saves, you're dead. This is also dumb.
Alternatively, they could have followed the same rules as a Contact Poison and give it an Onset period, then the Initial: Death / Secondary: 1Con/rd effects would actually make sense. Because if you fail the initial save with a poison that has an onset, then you're poisoned but nothing happens until you make the first save at the first onset. So if you have Onset 1 minute, Initial: Death, Secondary: 1Con/rd, Frequency 1min, 2 consecutive save cure, then if you fail the first save, nothing happens until 1 minute later, then you make your second save at the Onset (Initial Effect: Death), if you fail this 2nd save, then you die, and if you save, then nothing happens, but you're still poisoned. 1 minute later, you make another save, and if you fail, you don't die, but you would take 1 con loss, and now you need to make 2 consecutive saves again.
This is simply a bad copy paste from 3.5 rules.
Stops breath weapons. Poison (Kills; Fortitude partial for 1d6 points of Con damage instead).
Tbh, I think they could've deviated from the default Injury Poison rules and gone with:
Poison (Onset: 1rd; Frequency: 1/rd. for 6 rd.; init. effect: death, sec. effect: 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves).
Now, when you get poisoned by the wall, you make a save, and if you fail, you're poisoned but nothing happens yet. Next round is the Onset, you make your save vs the Initial Effect: Death. Save or Die. If you pass, then you don't die. Next round, you make your save vs the Secondary effect: -1Con. If you Save, you're no longer poisoned because you've made 2 consecutive saves, and if you fail, you take -1 Con and now you have to make 2 consecutive saves again.
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I had always been a bit confused by the Green Prismatic Poison. With an initial effect of death, I've never been sure when the secondary effect and saves to cure would actually come into play.That is a bit odd. I am going to look into that and get back to you. I have a suspicion that the effect of that ray will need to change. Looks like it was a left over from an earlier version of the poison mechanics.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Never got back to us as far as I know.
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The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.
To muddy the waters a bit, these are edge cases whose exact answers depend on how you interpret the particulars of certain scattered sentences in the rules. 99%+ of the time it doesn't matter, but there are occasions where the GM will have to make a ruling.
1) Do spell effects that can only target creatures end when the creature dies? Is it the moment of death, or do you give a "grace period" for breath of life? If they instantly end, so would the prismatic poison.
2) Regeneration is poorly written (see below) and for some reason was never clarified. But as Diego said there are things that could prevent you from gaining the "dead" condition, even if you failed the initial saving throw.
they can’t die as long as their regeneration is still functioning
but then it goes on to muddy the waters a bit
Attacks that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.
So they can be affected by something that might kills them (like green prismatic poison), but they can't die, but they are not being healed from being dead, but they aren't dead...
I'm not going to make a categorical statement of truth, but there is a substantial portion of the player base that believes regeneration only protects against HP death. And a portion that fervently believes it protects against everything.
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Attacks that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration.
To explain my line of thought:
1) the dead condition put you at negative constitution hit points.2) poison isn't a death effect, so the hit point loss should be healable by normal effects.
3) regeneration doesn't heal ability damage, so reaching 0 constitution will kill even a regenerating creature.
Most Pathfinder poisons don't deal hit point damage, but some kill you outright, and that is prevented by regeneration. I would put the regenerating creature at negative constitution hit points and have it regenerate from there.
The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.
Breath of Life cannot restore life to those who've been slain by Death effects. You'd have to use Raise Dead or Resurrection.
But still, the Initial Effect: Death & Secondary Effect: 1Con/rd would make a lot more sense if this had an Onset of 1rd.
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Breath of Life cannot restore life to those who've been slain by Death effects. You'd have to use Raise Dead or Resurrection.The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.
Another annoying tiny hole in the rules. There's no definition of a "death effect." There is a "death attacks" definition, but even that doesn't provide a general explanation of what qualifies as a death attack. It also seems to imply there is some kind of difference between a death attack and a death effect.
Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
Most people assume that anything that kills you outright is a death effect, but there are some who play as if only things that are explicitly death effects (bard's Deadly Performance) are "death effects" Others include spells that have the [death] descriptor as "death effects."
I personally play that almost anything that kills you by a means other than wearing down your HP is a death effect, and I think it's needlessly complicating to try to parse it finer than that.
Yeah, so Raise Dead wouldn't work either. Resurrection would.
So going back to Ryze's quote from 3e, I seems that the green wall/ray's intended effect is you're poisoned (and saving the initial save doesn't mean you're not poisoned, but the poison still hurts you on continued saves for 1 point of con dmg until it fully runs its natural course?
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The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.Breath of Life cannot restore life to those who've been slain by Death effects. You'd have to use Raise Dead or Resurrection.
But still, the Initial Effect: Death & Secondary Effect: 1Con/rd would make a lot more sense if this had an Onset of 1rd.
Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
I personally play that almost anything that kills you by a means other than wearing down your HP is a death effect, and I think it's needlessly complicating to try to parse it finer than that.
So you can't be raised if you suffer 50+ hit points of damage and fail the save?
Or if someone performs a Coup de grace and you fail the save?From my point of view Death effects are those that say that they are death effects.
Using another definition broadens the number of death effects nedlessy.
Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
Death Ward doesn't protect against poisons that cause death. Death Ward gives a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects, so I would say that includes the magical death effect created by Prismatic Wall.
Prismatic Wall doesn't have the [death] or [poison] descriptor, so it is technically neither a death spell nor a poison spell, but it does have a magical death effect from an "unofficial" poison effect.
Death Ward
School necromancy; Level alchemist 4, cleric/oracle 4, druid 5, inquisitor 4, paladin 4, witch 4; Domain death 4, repose 4
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
The subject gains a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects. The subject is granted a save to negate such effects even if one is not normally allowed. The subject is immune to energy drain and any negative energy effects, including channeled negative energy.
This spell does not remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, but it does remove the penalties from negative levels for the duration of its effect.
Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks, even if those attacks might be lethal.
Prismatic Wall
School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 8; Subdomain isolation 8
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect wall 4 ft./level wide, 2 ft./level high
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance see textDESCRIPTION
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall- a shimmering, multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack. The wall flashes with seven colors, each of which has a distinct power and purpose. The wall is immobile, and you can pass through and remain near the wall without harm. Any other creature with less than 8 HD that is within 20 feet of the wall is blinded by the colors for 2d4 rounds if it looks at the wall.
The wall’s maximum proportions are 4 feet wide per caster level and 2 feet high per caster level. A prismatic wall spell cast to materialize in a space occupied by a creature is disrupted, and the spell is wasted.
Each color in the wall has a special effect. The accompanying table shows the seven colors of the wall, the order in which they appear, their effects on creatures trying to attack you or pass through the wall, and the magic needed to negate each color.
The wall can be destroyed, color by color, in consecutive order, by casting the specified spells on the wall; however, the first color must be brought down before the second can be affected, and so on. A rod of cancellation or a mage’s disjunction spell destroys a prismatic wall, but an antimagic field fails to penetrate it. Dispel magic and greater dispel magic can only be used on the wall once all the other colors have been destroyed. Spell Resistance is effective against a prismatic wall, but the caster level check must be repeated for each color present.
Prismatic wall can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Order Color Effect of Color Negated by
1st Red Stops non-magical ranged weapons.
Deals 20 points of fire damage (Reflex half). Cone of cold
2nd Orange Stops magical ranged weapons.
Deals 40 points of acid damage (Reflex half). Gust of wind
3rd Yellow Stops poisons, gases, and petrification.
Deals 80 points of electricity damage (Reflex half). Disintegrate
4th Green Stops breath weapons.
Poison (Frequency: 1/rd. for 6 rd.; init. effect: death, sec. effect: 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves). Passwall
5th Blue Stops divination and mental attacks.
Turned to stone (Fortitude negates). Magic missile
6th Indigo Stops all spells.
Will save or become insane (as insanity spell). Daylight
7th Violet Energy field destroys all objects and effects.*
Creatures sent to another plane (Will negates). Dispel magic or greater dispel magic
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So going back to Ryze's quote from 3e, I seems that the green wall/ray's intended effect is you're poisoned (and saving the initial save doesn't mean you're not poisoned, but the poison still hurts you on continued saves for 1 point of con dmg until it fully runs its natural course?
In Pathfinder 1E - if you make the initial save you are not poisoned. That's true for all poisons including green prismatic poison.
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The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.Breath of Life cannot restore life to those who've been slain by Death effects. You'd have to use Raise Dead or Resurrection.
But still, the Initial Effect: Death & Secondary Effect: 1Con/rd would make a lot more sense if this had an Onset of 1rd.
Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
I personally play that almost anything that kills you by a means other than wearing down your HP is a death effect, and I think it's needlessly complicating to try to parse it finer than that.So you can't be raised if you suffer 50+ hit points of damage and fail the save?
Or if someone performs a Coup de grace and you fail the save?From my point of view Death effects are those that say that they are death effects.
Using another definition broadens the number of death effects nedlessy.
Like I said, it's messy since "death effect" isn't defined and requires some GM interpretation in the rare cases it matters.
Let me repeat that. There isn't a 100% crystal clear answer.
I will amend my earlier statement, on reflection it was more broad than the way I actually GM the game.
In the case of massive damage or coup-de-gras, no, I wouldn't consider those death effects. (I don't personally play with the massive damage optional rule.) But any spell whose direct effect is "you die" - whether or not it has the "death" descriptor - would be a death effect. The key word their is "direct," so suffocation wouldn't be a death effect but phantasmal killer is in my games. So would green prismatic poison (whose only sources are spells).
There are literally only two things in the Core Rulebook that are explicitly called a "Death Effect" and that is the bard's Deadly Performance and a slaying arrow. The Assassin gets a "Death Attack," but as I quoted above the section on Death Attacks seems to imply that Death Attacks and Death Effects aren't the same thing.
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Side note (again harping on the fact that the rules aren't foolproof and you have to use your judgment at times).
- The Death Attacks rules on page 562 say that anyone slain by a death attack can't be brought back by raise dead.
- The assassin prestige class gets death attack at 1st level. Yet the 4th level True Death ability says
Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin’s death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin’s level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted.
Clearly there's a disconnect between these two rules. The assassin ability presupposes that it IS possible to use raise dead on a creature slain by the death attack.
So going back to Ryze's quote from 3e, I seems that the green wall/ray's intended effect is you're poisoned (and saving the initial save doesn't mean you're not poisoned, but the poison still hurts you on continued saves for 1 point of con dmg until it fully runs its natural course?In Pathfinder 1E - if you make the initial save you are not poisoned. That's true for all poisons including green prismatic poison.
Yes that's clearly the normal rule, but this is also clearly a f@#& up on the rules, as mentioned above by a dev team member who said they would look at it again, and never got back on it.
Maybe the format was done wrong, but clearly the way it is intended to work is not just save and you're fine, don't save and you're dead and things that no longer matter also happen.
The secondary damage is relevant if:
1) the creature is saved from death by breath of life;
2) it has some item/ability/other that keep it alive (as an example regeneration) but doesn't protect it from characteristic damage.Breath of Life cannot restore life to those who've been slain by Death effects. You'd have to use Raise Dead or Resurrection.
But still, the Initial Effect: Death & Secondary Effect: 1Con/rd would make a lot more sense if this had an Onset of 1rd.
Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
I personally play that almost anything that kills you by a means other than wearing down your HP is a death effect, and I think it's needlessly complicating to try to parse it finer than that.So you can't be raised if you suffer 50+ hit points of damage and fail the save?
Or if someone performs a Coup de grace and you fail the save?From my point of view Death effects are those that say that they are death effects.
Using another definition broadens the number of death effects nedlessy.
Actually, I would say yes to all 3, as they imply your body is essentially being destroyed to a point you couldn't be raised dead. E.g. beheading someone via a coup de grace would not be raise dead-able as their body is no longer in functioning form.
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Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
Death Ward doesn't protect against poisons that cause death. Death Ward gives a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects, so I would say that includes the magical death effect created by Prismatic Wall.
Prismatic Wall doesn't have the [death] or [poison] descriptor, so it is technically neither a death spell nor a poison spell, but it does have a magical death effect from an "unofficial" poison effect.
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Prismatic Wall
4th Green Stops breath weapons.
Poison (Frequency: 1/rd. for 6 rd.; init. effect: death, sec. effect: 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves). Passwall
You sure have a strange way to read "Poison". So a poison is a Death effect and an "unofficial" poison effect because it is part of a spell with several effects?
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In the case of massive damage or coup-de-gras, no, I wouldn't consider those death effects. (I don't personally play with the massive damage optional rule.) But any spell whose direct effect is "you die" - whether or not it has the "death" descriptor - would be a death effect. The key word their is "direct," so suffocation wouldn't be a death effect but phantasmal killer is in my games. So would green prismatic poison (whose only sources are spells).
Prismatic wall green poison direct effect isn't you die, it is "poison". The poison effect is you die if you fail the save.
So, either a poison is a death effect in your book, or green poison isn't a death effect. Or you rule stuff in an incoherent way.
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Side note (again harping on the fact that the rules aren't foolproof and you have to use your judgment at times).
- The Death Attacks rules on page 562 say that anyone slain by a death attack can't be brought back by raise dead.
- The assassin prestige class gets death attack at 1st level. Yet the 4th level True Death ability says
Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin’s death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin’s level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted.Clearly there's a disconnect between these two rules. The assassin ability presupposes that it IS possible to use raise dead on a creature slain by the death attack.
The name of an ability doesn't make it a death effect.
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice).
The first phrase in the ability description says that the ability can be used in two ways, killing or paralyzing. If it is used to paralyze, it is a death attack because the name is death attack?
The name of an ability doesn't define what it does, it is an (often embellished) description. Pirana strike doesn't have you striking the opponent with a pirana, nor summon a pirana to strike an opponent.
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Actually, I would say yes to all 3, as they imply your body is essentially being destroyed to a point you couldn't be raised dead. E.g. beheading someone via a coup de grace would not be raise dead-able as their body is no longer in functioning form.
"Imply your body is essentially being destroyed" ... Where?
Coup de grace can be done with a rapier, or a dagger, or a spear. how do you destroy a body with those weapons? You impale the target hear, or the brain, but "While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole." handle cover for that.
Poison? So poison destroys the body now?
50+ points of damage in one strike? Maybe, but it can be a caved chest and ribs entering the heart and lugs. Again, it is possible to deliver that damage with a dagger, so, how do you "destroy a body" with it?
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Side note (again harping on the fact that the rules aren't foolproof and you have to use your judgment at times).
- The Death Attacks rules on page 562 say that anyone slain by a death attack can't be brought back by raise dead.
- The assassin prestige class gets death attack at 1st level. Yet the 4th level True Death ability says
Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin’s death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin’s level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted.Clearly there's a disconnect between these two rules. The assassin ability presupposes that it IS possible to use raise dead on a creature slain by the death attack.The name of an ability doesn't make it a death effect.
Death Attack (Ex): If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice).The first phrase in the ability description says that the ability can be used in two ways, killing or paralyzing. If it is used to paralyze, it is a death attack because the name is death attack?
The name of an ability doesn't define what it does, it is an (often embellished) description. Pirana strike doesn't have you striking the opponent with a pirana, nor summon a pirana to strike an opponent,
I was going to respond to one of your other posts but this is where you lost the crowd.
If a Death Attack that kills you is not a Death Attack, then there is something wrong.
You can't try to hyperliteral your way around the fact that there are holes and inconsistencies in the rules. Sometimes you have to use GM common sense.
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Yes, and common sense is that a knife in the heart isn't a "death attack" in game terms.
It is a killing strike, no doubt, but it doesn't make you less able to be raised from the dead by raise dead than having the same knife delivering the 3 hit points that push your character with 12 constitution from -10 to -13.
Otherwise, any hit that kills you is a death attack.
You are using the "common sense in a world without raise dead" to adjudicate the "common sense of a world with raise dead".
You sure have a strange way to read "Poison". So a poison is a Death effect and an "unofficial" poison effect because it is part of a spell with several effects?
Poison isn't a death effect. Or do you think that Death ward protects against poison?
Death Ward doesn't protect against poisons that cause death. Death Ward gives a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects, so I would say that includes the magical death effect created by Prismatic Wall.
Prismatic Wall doesn't have the [death] or [poison] descriptor, so it is technically neither a death spell nor a poison spell, but it does have a magical death effect from an "unofficial" poison effect.
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Prismatic Wall
4th Green Stops breath weapons.
Poison (Frequency: 1/rd. for 6 rd.; init. effect: death, sec. effect: 1 Con/rd.; Cure 2 consecutive Fort saves). Passwall
Death Ward applies to Prismatic Wall because it creates a magical death effect, and to me, whether the spell creates a magical poison to kill you, or an illusion to kill you, is irrelevant. I'd say if any spell that can outright kill you with any of its effects, then Death Ward applies.
Actually, I would say yes to all 3, as they imply your body is essentially being destroyed to a point you couldn't be raised dead. E.g. beheading someone via a coup de grace would not be raise dead-able as their body is no longer in functioning form."Imply your body is essentially being destroyed" ... Where?
Coup de grace can be done with a rapier, or a dagger, or a spear. how do you destroy a body with those weapons? You impale the target hear, or the brain, but "While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole." handle cover for that.
Poison? So poison destroys the body now?
50+ points of damage in one strike? Maybe, but it can be a caved chest and ribs entering the heart and lugs. Again, it is possible to deliver that damage with a dagger, so, how do you "destroy a body" with it?
It's the same as a regular zombie being "destroyed" and unusable for future reanimation when you just club it to death normally. If the spell's "poison" effect makes the skin go immediately, mortally necrotic, then yeah, you could say the body is no longer suitable for life/destroyed. Mummy Rot is a "disease" that essentially does the same thing. And for how you manage to kill someone with a dagger to the point that their body is destroyed, see how you managed to get a dagger to do 50 damage in the first place: you're a super human warrior.