barring the mechanics, how, in game, is the versatile performance supposed to be used? My GM and I have an ongoing disagreement that you have to be playing/performing that style to use the skill bonus at the time you apply it, which makes very little sense in some of the cases. Are you really going to sing a diplomacy check (especially when dealing with royalty) or drumming when you handle animal? I mean acting, comedy, dance and oratory make sense, but how the hell are you going to sweet talk someone while playing a flute?
RAW is as clear as it can possibly be. "At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills." It says the bard can replace "his bonus" (a bonus is a numerical value), it doesn't say it replaces which skill is used.
Going to agree with Derk on this one. You use the perform bonus but are still making the various checks as themselves. For example, you’re rolling a diplomacy check and using the bonus from the perform skill. You are never actually using the perform skill there, just the bonus.
Conversely, if you had an ability that allowed you to roll twice and take the better result on perform check, that would not apply if you were using the bonus to make a diplomacy check.
It's just trading the bonus you apply, not the skill you are using.
If you have Versatile Performance and choose Perform: Percussion... you are not drumming whilst handling animals... if you must have some in-game way to explain the mechanics at play, then you can pretend that you have learned excellent timing/rhythm as a percussionist, and the tempo of your voice is soothing to animals. Or maybe all that $#!+ talking as a stand up comedian gives you some wicked insults that make you more Intimidating. Or your time dancing ballet helps you fly... there is absolutely no real mechanical connection. None.
You are just trading the bonus, not the skill being used.
Well, just to play devil's advocate here (and thankfully this is Advice and Rules, not just Rules), it really comes down to your GM's call. As most say, the ability isn't necessarily fleshed out. This could be:
A. Because they just want it to be a bonus that's provided at all times with no consideration of reality or verisimilitude.
or
B. There are so many Perform skills (oratory, percussion, keyboard, dancing, etc.) and so many linked skills with each one, that they obviously couldn't spend the two to three paragraphs describing when it's appropriate to get the bonus.
Most people will say A, but (as I said, just being devil's advocate here), it is entirely within the purview of the GM to determine when a skill can or cannot be used or even what bonuses or penalties apply. For instance, In the middle of the Sahara, he or she might not allow you to make a Profession (sailor) check for weekly income, even if your like "But I could be... mending nets... for sand fishing."
It is entirely reasonable for a GM to expect you to be able to at least describe (in some way) how your character is performing a skill (they can apply bonuses or penalties, for instance, depending on how you go about something). For instance, whether you have a high Disable Device roll or not, if you announce that you're disarming a trap by jumping onto the pressure plate that activates it... you don't get to say "It's just a roll, role-playing means nothing in Pathfinder."
Versatile Performance (Ex) wrote:
At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
So reading that, you really need to ask... do you get the total skill bonus, including things like equipment or masterwork bonuses? For example, a masterwork drum gives a +2 to Perform (Percussion) checks... would your GM view that you do or do not get that bonus? If yes... then the implication is that you are using the drum in what you're doing. And the obvious implication from that (which doesn't need stating in the Rules, but I am doing it here as devil's advocate), is that you need to be using the drum how it's meant to be used; ie. you can't just claim you're holding a masterwork drum and get its bonus anymore than you can claim the bonus from a Healer's Kit just because you have one... and not use it.
Similarly, if you're using your Perform (Oratory) skill in place of Sense Motive, some people might claim that your race's +2 racial bonus to political satire (for example) should apply as part of the total bonus from Perform, or that you have a masterwork throat spray that lubricates your vocal cords and gives a +2 masterwork bonus to your Perform (Oratory)... If you're playing with someone who says that you should get that bonus to Sense Motive (which doesn't necessarily involve you talking; there can be dialogue, but you could also just be involved in the conversation listening), then there should be an actual showing in game of you somehow using your object or skill.
Long story short, yes, it's a bonus... but just because Pathfinder didn't go into examples (they tend to actually have removed all helpful examples from their descriptions), that doesn't mean that things just 'happen' because 'stuff'. So if you're on the side of receiving your total skill bonus from Perform (including things that aren't related to the skill being subbed in), then you also have to admit that there has to be something going on relating to the Perform skill being used, whether that's you thoughtfully tapping out a staccato percussion on your masterwork drum, or you actually engaging in oratory to elicit the Perform bonus to Sense Motive. At least in some small, actually quantifiable action in roleplay.
Not everyone has to agree, and different GMs can rule whatever works in their game or even pick and choose when something doesn't make sense.
Well, just to play devil's advocate here (and thankfully this is Advice and Rules, not just Rules), it really comes down to your GM's call.
Literally everything "comes down to your GM's call". A GM can say that your Fighter's Weapon Training doesn't apply to mithral weapons because you're only trained with regular weighted steel weapons.
But that's not a valid rule interpretation, it's a pure houserule. A GM is free to houserule, a GM is not free to claim a houserule as an interpretation of the written rules.
Pizza Lord wrote:
For example, a masterwork drum gives a +2 to Perform (Percussion) checks... would your GM view that you do or do not get that bonus? If yes... then the implication is that you are using the drum in what you're doing. And the obvious implication from that [...], is that you need to be using the drum how it's meant to be used
I think that's actually in the rules: "Artisan’s Tools, Masterwork: These tools serve the same purpose as artisan’s tools, but masterwork artisan’s tools are the perfect tools for the job, so you get a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft checks made with them." CRB pg. 161, emphasis mine.
Of course, saying "you need to be using a drum to get a bonus from it" is fundamentally different from saying "you need to be using a drum to profit from versatile performance (percussion)".
So would you apply your Skill Focus (Perform) bonus to the associated skill?
The feat specifically is not a skill bonus, but it is instead a +3 bonus to a Perform check. It doesn't actually change your skill bonus (which is your ranks + class skill bonus). Unlike a class skill bonus, despite being specifically called out as being included, that actually states it increases your skill bonus.
Class Skills wrote:
You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into.
Whereas Skill Focus does not add a bonus to skills, but only checks involving the chosen skill.
Skill Focus wrote:
You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving the chosen skill.
You could try and 'interpret' it by saying, "well... the linked skill is... somewhat associated with the Perform skill... and thus it tangentially 'involves' it, so Skill Focus counts," but at that point, you're admitting that there are things that would then apply, even if you aren't actually using the Perform skill (subject to what? GM interpretation).
If you're going to go flat out pedantic and hardline that the linked skill isn't a Perform check, like Melkiador also asserted (which is fine, and could be right, I'm not disagreeing with you), then you clearly can't be applying things that apply to Perform skill checks, like rerolls or modifiers or contingencies that might trigger off a Perform check.
That could include the ability modifiers as well (Charisma, in this case).
The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability.
That's not a bonus to a skill, but instead a modifier which is added to a roll or check, like a 'skill check' (whether as a bonus or a penalty). Do you have an actual term on 'Skill Bonus' as opposed to 'bonus to a skill check'? Other than under class skills (which are already specifically called out). And why would that be necessary?
All this is fine if that's how you actually rule it, in which case, maybe we agree (but I, at least, didn't get that impression or clarification in your replies). Either way, it's a bit disingenuous to state that no other GM could possibly just interpret it as giving the actual Perform skill modifiers (not just skill bonus, because a penalty isn't a bonus, but they are used interchangeably at times). Dismissing their interpretation as a houserule is ... well dismissive by its nature, but also a bit crass and myopic.
I think there would be numerous GMs that would just add the Skill Focus bonus to the linked skill, and whether they are officially right or wrong (and thus are houseruling rather than interpreting) can't be completely determined until we at least know how they're actually reading it, and how it's supposed to be read.
The Problem:
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I do have a problem with flat-out declarations that something isn't something else and that nothing would necessarily apply... when the intention might not be so apparent and that maybe some interpretation might be in order. When you say something like:
Derklord wrote:
RAW is as clear as it can possibly be. "At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills."
and then follow it up with something like:
Derklord wrote:
Of course, saying "you need to be using a drum to get a bonus from it" is fundamentally different from saying "you need to be using a drum to profit from versatile performance (percussion)".
you would also have to admit that the wording:
Versatile Performance wrote:
He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus, ...
is not the same as saying:
Quote:
He can use his bonuses to that skill's check in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform check modifier, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill’s bonus,
You can try and claim that a skill modifier is a skill bonus, or that a modifier is a bonus to a skill, but that writing isn't so obvious. It's a bonus to a 'skill check' but only class skills actually state that they increase your skill bonus. Almost everything else applies to a skill check. For instance, half-elves and dwarves don't get 'bonuses to the Perception or Appraisal skills (respectively)' but instead to those skill's checks. And in fact, it's almost universally written out as 'checks', which means, when a GM reads the term skill bonus (which also specifies class skill bonuses, which is pretty much the only place you find the term 'skill bonus') it's easy to see how it can be interpreted in one way.
(And maybe that is exactly how you do 'interpret' it, I can't tell, but stating that it's crystal clear and no one else could interpret it differently isn't going to sit so well in an 'Advice and' forum, especially since the OP isn't asking for Rules or mechanics involved, and specifically barred that, instead asking what Advice to give and how to interpret something).
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Again, TL/DR, I completely agree that the character is not performing a performance with the Perform skill that is linked to the skill they are substituting, nor do they have to. You don't have to play the flute to escape your rope bindings (and in fact, you'd have a hard time untying the rope while your hands were busy playing the flute), but that doesn't mean I agree with complete and total separation of the influences on a Perform check from the linked skill... especially not how those influences influence the actual actions (ie. roleplay) of the character when they use Versatile Performance.
So would you apply your Skill Focus (Perform) bonus to the associated skill?
There's no need to try and make it this complicate. The answer would be yes, if you where substituting that skill with a particular perform.
Anything that adds to your bluff role would be a bluff bonus, anything that adds to your perform roll would be a perform bonus. If you really want to over analyze every possible bonus that didn't specifically use the word bonus, that's your choice but that would be a nightmare to deal with.
As for the overall point which has already been answered with you substitute the bonus, the intent is suppose to be that your experience lends itself to that skill, you don't sing at someone to sense motive, however you want to interprate it, your skill as a singer helps you better read the mood.
