Fighter threatens Efreeti with a melee weapon. Efreeti has the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat for its spell-like ability scorching ray.
Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Efreeti casts a quickened scorching ray at Cleric. Casting the spell-like ability does not provoke, but making a ranged attack does. Fighter makes an attack of opportunity, hits, and does damage.
GM rules: The Efreeti completed the spell, then the Fighter attacked and dealt damage, then the Efreeti made a ranged touch attack, then the Cleric took damage.Because the casting part of the spell was completed, the Fighter's aoo against the ranged attack doesn't trigger the Efreeti to make a concentration check or lose the spell.
1) Is it correct that a quickened spell-like ability with a ranged attack provokes once, from the ranged attack?
2) Does damage taken during the ranged attack part of a spell require the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell?
3) Does the answer change if during a standard action, standard scorching ray the caster succeeds on casting defensively to not provoke off the casting but still provokes from the ranged attack and takes damage?
I was under the impression that casting the spell and making the ranged attack were part of the same action, so any damage taken from the ranged attack would prompt a concentration check vs loss of the spell.
I let it slide in the moment and looked it up later, but I can't find any explicit rulings either for or against the GM's decision. I'd appreciate anything concrete in the rules I could take back to my group for next time.
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1: yes
2: i would say no as long as the ranged attack is at the end of the spell (as in the spell doesn't continue on to need more decision to make after it hits, say levitate the target of the attack or such)
3: no
my reasons:
provoking aoo is usually doing something that distract you from your guarded stance enough for an opening. some actions might provoke more hten once if the trigger is different (the whole tripping with a feat that let you aoo for tripping and an other for hitting someone who fall. or casting a spell with a ranged attack).
casting as a swift action doesn't provoke.
if a caster is damaged while casting his spell he need to concentrate or the spell fizzles. if it was not a swift action it would go like.
caster cast and lower his guard (non defensively), provokes and get hit -spell is not complete and fizzles.
in this case as the trigger to the aoo was the ranged attack the spell is mostly cast already all it need to do is hit the target. i would consider the spell cast and the ranged attack like any other ranged attack that provoke. you might get hit for doing it but you still get to shoot and deal damage should you hit. since it wasn't the casting that provoked it's not the casting that get interrupted.
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I'd rule the same, but cannot point at a concise rule quote to support this.
That's pretty much what my GM thought. As a counterpoint, if you cast a touch spell and hold it on Round 1 and deliver it Round 2, any damage you take in the interim will prompt a concentration spell to not lose the charge. The spell is at risk until it's discharged.
But I don't mean to argue the point. I can see how it can be one way or the other. I'm more hoping for some concrete rules about if the ranged attack part is indeed separate and chronologically after the verbal/somatic part.
Edited to add: And also if incoming damage from a ranged attack hits before you discharge your spell or after.
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That's pretty much what my GM thought. As a counterpoint, if you cast a touch spell and hold it on Round 1 and deliver it Round 2, any damage you take in the interim will prompt a concentration spell to not lose the charge. The spell is at risk until it's discharged.
I thought this too for a long time, but it's not actually correct. Touch spells don't require concentration checks to hold them.
The times when you take damage on the enemy turn and have to make a concentration check are when the *casting* of the spell takes 1 round or longer, eg. Summon Monster or Restoration , or when you're concentrating on a spell to maintain it .
I *Think* the concentration check to hold touch spells is from an older edition, but I couldn't point to it right now.
HERE is a link to how Touch spells and concentration checks work, just so you can check.
Touch spells don't require concentration checks to hold them.
I feel like I'm going crazy. I could have sworn they did. Thanks for the correction. That precedent is almost enough to make me completely abandon my original question.
Touch spells don't require concentration checks to hold them.I feel like I'm going crazy. I could have sworn they did.
Me too buddy, me too.
I dunno if it was a different game or a previous edition or just a common house rule, but apparently we misremembered the same thing.
I agree with what's been said here, and would rule as your GM did.
Keep in mind that most efreeti get 2 rays with scorching ray, which means they should provoke twice technically, and that the first provoking for damage should proc a concentration check to retain the second ray.
1) Is it correct that a quickened spell-like ability with a ranged attack provokes once, from the ranged attack?
Yes. Normally, spells with a ranged attack provoke twice as per this FAQ, once for casting and once for the attack, but the spell rules remove the provocation for the cast in this case: "Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity." CRB pg. 213
2) Does damage taken during the ranged attack part of a spell require the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell?
Nope, nothing says so.
3) Does the answer change if during a standard action, standard scorching ray the caster succeeds on casting defensively to not provoke off the casting but still provokes from the ranged attack and takes damage?
No, because the ranged attack is only done after the spell has finished casting, per he rules on Casting Time: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." CRB pg. 213 You can't make an attack without a target, and you only chose a target after the casting time is over.
Keep in mind that most efreeti get 2 rays with scorching ray, which means they should provoke twice technically, and that the first provoking for damage should proc a concentration check to retain the second ray.
Wrong per the above linked FAQ: "Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack."
Fighter threatens Efreeti with a melee weapon. Efreeti has the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat for its spell-like ability scorching ray.
Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.Efreeti casts a quickened scorching ray at Cleric. Casting the spell-like ability does not provoke, but making a ranged attack does. Fighter makes an attack of opportunity, hits, and does damage.
GM rules: The Efreeti completed the spell, then the Fighter attacked and dealt damage, then the Efreeti made a ranged touch attack, then the Cleric took damage.
Because the casting part of the spell was completed, the Fighter's aoo against the ranged attack doesn't trigger the Efreeti to make a concentration check or lose the spell.1) Is it correct that a quickened spell-like ability with a ranged attack provokes once, from the ranged attack?
2) Does damage taken during the ranged attack part of a spell require the caster to make a concentration check or lose the spell?
3) Does the answer change if during a standard action, standard scorching ray the caster succeeds on casting defensively to not provoke off the casting but still provokes from the ranged attack and takes damage?I was under the impression that casting the spell and making the ranged attack were part of the same action, so any damage taken from the ranged attack would prompt a concentration check vs loss of the spell.
I let it slide in the moment and looked it up later, but I can't find any explicit rulings either for or against the GM's decision. I'd appreciate anything concrete in the rules I could take back to my group for next time.
Your GM was correct on all counts. The SLA was completed as a swift action so no AoO gets provoked. The Ranged Attack does provoke an AoO, and the Fighter resolves the AoO immediately (before the ranged touch attack is made), after the Fighter's AoO gets resolved, then the Efreeti makes his ranged attack roll and the cleric takes damage.
If the Efreeti had casted Scorching Ray defensively as a Standard Action, it would still provoke an AoO. All ranged touch attacks provoke even if you cast defensively, so he smartly cast this as a swift action.
Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell’s level) fails, you can’t use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn
If the Efreeti casted this as Standard Action, he would provoke an AoO from the fighter for casting a spell, and make a Conc check based on how much dmg the fighter deals with that AoO to keep the spell, then if he makes the Conc check, he would provoke a 2nd AoO for making a ranged attack.
Keep in mind that most efreeti get 2 rays with scorching ray, which means they should provoke twice technically, and that the first provoking for damage should proc a concentration check to retain the second ray.Wrong per the above linked FAQ: "Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack."
Ah, then I guess that would be a case by case basis on whether the spell itself calls out concentration for later rounds for ray firing.
"Later rounds for ray firing"? Huh? The reason that there is only one AoO for firing scorching rays is that they are simultaneous, all launched when the casting is finished.
There are some spells that require extra concentration for the next rounds similar to lightning storm to get extra effects, though I am blanking on some of them atm.
Most image spells(silent image etc) have duration with concentration. Some with plus x rounds after you stop.
Concentrating to maintain the spell i belive is standard action.
Not sure how does that work with getting damaged. But you asked for other spell that require concentratiin, so i tought ill add it.
Thanks for all the input! I'm glad I'm fixing my understanding of the rules. I think I might have learned some of them the wrong way from a podcast, perhaps?
No, because the ranged attack is only done after the spell has finished casting, per he rules on Casting Time: "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect." CRB pg. 213 You can't make an attack without a target, and you only chose a target after the casting time is over.
This bit especially is something I'll take back to my group. Thanks for the page citation too.
Concentrating to maintain the spell i belive is standard action.
Not sure how does that work with getting damaged. But you asked for other spell that require concentratiin, so i tought ill add it.
Yes it's a standard action to maintain a spell by concentrating. And yes that concentration can be broken (and the spell lost) if you are damaged.
Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.
EDIT: Although it's worth noting that concentrating to maintain a spell does NOT itself provoke attacks of opportunity .