Advanced Player's Guide pg. 184 wrote: Once per day, you can use Battle Medicine on a creature that’s temporarily immune. If you’re a master in Medicine, you can do so once per hour. So, how many uses that is?
You can use BM on each creature once plus one additional time on one of the creatures per day overall,
or you can use BM on each creature plus one additional time per day per creature (so basically you can use BM on a creature twice)?
An adjustment for changing cooldowns of this feat and BM (Forensic Medicine) to one hour is easy. The main question above is the same.
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It looks like it just gives you 1 additional time per day, or one additional time per hour. So it would be [party size + 1] per day/hour.
Yeah, two possible readings.
Once per day (or per hour) per target.
Once per day (or per hour) for the character in total.
I'm not sure which is intended.
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It doesn't mention any target.
Once per day you can use bm on a target already immune to your bm.
When you hit master medicine, you can use it once per hour rather than once per day.
You could use it every hour on the same target which is already immune to you bm, if you want to.
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Once per day you can do X is limiting your ability to do something, not the target's ability to have something done to them. So I agree with what others have said: it's limited to once per day (or hour if you're a master in Medicine).
HumbleGamer, Aw3som3-117, yes, I actually agree, it's not that ambiguous (if at all). It's just I couldn't convince my group and decided to ask elsewhere to compare. People for some reason get stuck on 'creature that's immune' and ignore 'you'. Maybe it's just wishful thinking.
I suppose Medic dedication gives a nice bonus even without 2 uses per creature.
2 uses per creature may mean 3/4 hours of dungeoning per day.
If we consider a party of 4 with a character out of 4 not needing a "battle healing treatment", this will become 2/3 hours.
The point of the dedication is to provide healings to characters which might need it every single encounter ( assuming bad rolls).
Getting a dedication to cast an additional bm on the tank or melee combatant would imo be not that much useful.
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HumbleGamer wrote:
Getting a dedication to cast an additional bm on the tank or melee combatant would imo be not that much useful.
Well, good thing then that the dedication/archetype grants other bonuses along then, no?
Plus, due to those bonuses it actually is quite impactful since it's basically a free (resource wise) "focus power level" heal per day/hour.
shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Getting a dedication to cast an additional bm on the tank or melee combatant would imo be not that much useful.
Well, good thing then that the dedication/archetype grants other bonuses along then, no?
Plus, due to those bonuses it actually is quite impactful since it's basically a free (resource wise) "focus power level" heal per day/hour. Not at all.
Though the extra healings are a nice addition, the main purpose or the archetype is being to able to have a free bm on an immune target every hour.
Not being able to do so, I'd choose something different, if I were to.
Finally, I can only say that I am sorry for the op, since there's no room for misinterpretation. His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons ( I can only guess they consider it "too good to be true").
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HumbleGamer wrote:
Finally, I can only say that I am sorry for the op, since there's no room for misinterpretation. His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons ( I can only guess they consider it "too good to be true").
Ok, now I'm completely and utterly lost. I've read your post
Quote: It doesn't mention any target.
Once per day you can use bm on a target already immune to your bm.
as if you think that the cooldown is for you only and not at all per target/creature. Meaning 'number of creatures + 1' uses of BM per day for a day cooldown. Now you are saying the opposite, it seems.
Also, the group don't nerf MD, they use '2 uses per creature' variant. I am not trying to make them nerf that either, only to understand what exactly designers meant and is there any real ambiguity.
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HumbleGamer wrote: shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Getting a dedication to cast an additional bm on the tank or melee combatant would imo be not that much useful.
Well, good thing then that the dedication/archetype grants other bonuses along then, no?
Plus, due to those bonuses it actually is quite impactful since it's basically a free (resource wise) "focus power level" heal per day/hour. Not at all.
Though the extra healings are a nice addition, the main purpose or the archetype is being to able to have a free bm on an immune target every hour.
Not being able to do so, I'd choose something different, if I were to.
Finally, I can only say that I am sorry for the op, since there's no room for misinterpretation. His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons ( I can only guess they consider it "too good to be true"). What?
No one is saying you can't do it every hour.
What most of us are saying is that you can't do it every hour on ALL characters. So basically, 5 extra times per hour in a 5 person party.
For me the CLEAR reading is that, and judging from the rest of the posts, so is for the majority of the people.
It's basically on par with other stuff like the blessed archetype, each with its own pros and cons, but generally 1 extra incombat heal every now and then.
Your *interpretation* of it being 5+ heals per hour, as far as the circle I play with is concerned, is definitely a unique one.
P. S.
I sincerely don't get how you even get to that interpretation:
"once per hour you can do x to an immune creature"
It doesn't matter how many immune creatures there are, you can do that thing "once per hour".
Why does it matter if someone else is also immune?
Errenor wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Finally, I can only say that I am sorry for the op, since there's no room for misinterpretation. His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons ( I can only guess they consider it "too good to be true").
Ok, now I'm completely and utterly lost. I've read your post
Quote: It doesn't mention any target.
Once per day you can use bm on a target already immune to your bm.
as if you think that the cooldown is for you only and not at all per target/creature. Meaning 'number of creatures + 1' uses of BM per day for a day cooldown. Now you are saying the opposite, it seems.
Also, the group don't nerf MD, they use '2 uses per creature' variant. I am not trying to make them nerf that either, only to understand what exactly designers meant and is there any real ambiguity. You're not alone. I'm a little confused what's being said by HumbleGamer as well. Personally I think it's pretty clear the limit on the extra one per day (or hour) is on the user, not the target. I can't comment on others.
shroudb wrote:
I sincerely don't get how you even get to that interpretation:
"once per hour you can do x to an immune creature"
It doesn't matter how many immune creatures there are, you can do that thing "once per hour".
That's more or less what I was telling to my guys. Didn't help. For them it somehow matters that a creature is immune to your BM, so you look at the creature, see that it's immune to your BM, look if you've already healed it while immune this day, if not - you can use BM on it. Something like that. Yes, obviously we got here a check for a particular creature which didn't really exist in the original rule.
Aw3som3-117 wrote:
Personally I think it's pretty clear the limit on the extra one per day (or hour) is on the user, not the target.
Yep :)
shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Getting a dedication to cast an additional bm on the tank or melee combatant would imo be not that much useful.
Well, good thing then that the dedication/archetype grants other bonuses along then, no?
Plus, due to those bonuses it actually is quite impactful since it's basically a free (resource wise) "focus power level" heal per day/hour. Not at all.
Though the extra healings are a nice addition, the main purpose or the archetype is being to able to have a free bm on an immune target every hour.
Not being able to do so, I'd choose something different, if I were to.
Finally, I can only say that I am sorry for the op, since there's no room for misinterpretation. His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons ( I can only guess they consider it "too good to be true"). What?
No one is saying you can't do it every hour.
What most of us are saying is that you can't do it every hour on ALL characters. So basically, 5 extra times per hour in a 5 person party.
For me the CLEAR reading is that, and judging from the rest of the posts, so is for the majority of the people.
It's basically on par with other stuff like the blessed archetype, each with its own pros and cons, but generally 1 extra incombat heal every now and then.
Your *interpretation* of it being 5+ heals per hour, as far as the circle I play with is concerned, is definitely a unique one.
P. S.
I sincerely don't get how you even get to that interpretation:
"once per hour you can do x to an immune creature"
It doesn't matter how many immune creatures there are, you can do that thing "once per hour".
Why does it matter if someone else is also immune? I realize now I may have read wrong the whole time, and thought it was " Once per hour on an immune target" Vs "once per hour on an immune target. Each immune target can be eligible once per day".
This was the point of the whole discussion, wasn't it?
I didn't intend to say, and even re reading my post I can't find it written anywhere ( but whatever) that bm could be used 5 times per hour, but just " 1 hour passed after you performed bm on an immune target, and because so you get another charge. You can target even the immune target you targeted last hour".
And that the extra healing ( +5/10/15 ) would have not been worth the dedication if you could have had a limit to 1 extra bm on immune target per day ( per specific target).
Maybe it's me the one who phrased poorly.
HumbleGamer wrote:
Maybe it's me the one who phrased poorly
It's also possible that I misread something in your post.
Also, my reply might have been a tad aggressive though, mainly due to me getting kinda annoyed by the "His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons" part. So, sorry for that.
shroudb wrote: HumbleGamer wrote:
Maybe it's me the one who phrased poorly
It's also possible that I misread something in your post.
Also, my reply might have been a tad aggressive though, mainly due to me getting kinda annoyed by the "His/her group is deliberately nerfing the archetype because reasons" part. So, sorry for that. No worries pal.
I could have definitely phrased that differently ( I was thinking about the "once per day per immune target" I got carried away, so sorry errenor if I sounded too harsh).
HumbleGamer wrote: " 1 hour passed after you performed bm on an immune target, and because so you get another charge. You can target even the immune target you targeted last hour" Noted. That was the topic. :) So still no x2 BM (or +1 per creature per hour).
HumbleGamer wrote: I was thinking about the "once per day per immune target" I got carried away, so sorry errenor if I sounded too harsh All is well.
It's "his group" btw, for clarity. :)
So from all 5 posters only breithauptclan sees any possible ambiguity. I guess I more or less have my answer then.
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Errenor wrote: So from all 5 posters only breithauptclan sees any possible ambiguity. I guess I more or less have my answer then. No, even I am convinced by:
Aw3som3-117 wrote: Once per day you can do X is limiting your ability to do something, not the target's ability to have something done to them. If I still disagreed with the consensus, believe me, I would have made it known by now.
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The rules are pretty clear, but how that works in fiction feels much less so. The way I've always justified Battle Medicine in my head is that you're basic stabbing the target with a shot of adrenaline. It gets them back in the fight with one action, but if you do it more than once per day their heart may explode.
But making the ability based on a cool down for the user and not the recipient is rather perplexing.
breithauptclan wrote:
No, even I am convinced by:
Aw3som3-117 wrote: Once per day you can do X is limiting your ability to do something, not the target's ability to have something done to them.
Noted. We have the consensus then, wow! :)
breithauptclan wrote: If I still disagreed with the consensus, believe me, I would have made it known by now. Well, you could forget, not have enough time or lose interest. There are possibilities. :)
Captain Morgan wrote: The rules are pretty clear, but how that works in fiction feels much less so. The way I've always justified Battle Medicine in my head is that you're basic stabbing the target with a shot of adrenaline. It gets them back in the fight with one action, but if you do it more than once per day their heart may explode.
But making the ability based on a cool down for the user and not the recipient is rather perplexing.
Yes, it's a little strange. Understandable from a design point of view, though. Still probably not the strangest thing.
Errenor wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: The rules are pretty clear, but how that works in fiction feels much less so. The way I've always justified Battle Medicine in my head is that you're basic stabbing the target with a shot of adrenaline. It gets them back in the fight with one action, but if you do it more than once per day their heart may explode.
But making the ability based on a cool down for the user and not the recipient is rather perplexing.
Yes, it's a little strange. Understandable from a design point of view, though. Still probably not the strangest thing.
Godless healing is the recipient version. More logical indeed.
Fishing for an explanation: The doctor is so good that (s)he knows exactly what the safe amount is to shoot into the patient in shorter intervals.
Falco271 wrote: Errenor wrote: Captain Morgan wrote: The rules are pretty clear, but how that works in fiction feels much less so. The way I've always justified Battle Medicine in my head is that you're basic stabbing the target with a shot of adrenaline. It gets them back in the fight with one action, but if you do it more than once per day their heart may explode.
But making the ability based on a cool down for the user and not the recipient is rather perplexing.
Yes, it's a little strange. Understandable from a design point of view, though. Still probably not the strangest thing.
Godless healing is the recipient version. More logical indeed.
Fishing for an explanation: The doctor is so good that (s)he knows exactly what the safe amount is to shoot into the patient in shorter intervals. So it isn't so much a limited resource being expended, but a once per day "luck" factor if someone you realize can receive a second dose? That's something, at least.
Errenor wrote: Well, you could forget, not have enough time or lose interest. There are possibilities. :) That is true. And in fact that is why I didn't mention anything earlier. Life happened and I wasn't on the boards much for almost 2 days. When I checked in, there was over a day's gap since the last post and the thread was about to drop off of the summary page. I didn't feel that it was worth resuscitating the thread just to post a concession speech.
RAW is clear: it only lets you target one already immune target per day, or per hour at Master Medicine.
Even adding Forensic Medicine from Investigator doesn't change that, and instead adjusts the temporary immunity from 1 day to 1 hour. You also can't multi-target the same person.
A Forensic Medicine Investigator with Master Medicine can treat each target once with Battle Medicine every hour, and may treat another singular target already treated every hour as well; both abilities are separate and independent of one another.
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