Hi, folks. Pretty straight up question:
Do creatures trigger an Attack of Opportunity before or after they leave the square they are in?
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It's not really before or after, it's effectively during since taking a Move Action to get OUT of something's reach that has AoO will still result in the creature that is moving to be a valid target for the AoO even if their movement takes them out or range. If it helps to think of it this way, each square of movement they make within your range starts with the square they are in and resolves in the destination square with total movement between spaces being chained together sort of like a collection of smaller not-action actions that are part of the Action being used.
I'd say it's as they are leaving the square, in a nebulous sense, but if you need to choose (because PF2's a grid system), it's before the target leaves the square because that's where the AoO hits them and where they'll fall if struck down. Note that the move action has still been spent, and it's occurring during the Strike; the target is moving despite not having gotten to a new square yet. This might matter for some feats/abilities.
Attacks which interrupt the move, like Stand Still, would put the target in the square they're leaving. Notice the language of that feat: "...or leaves a square during a move action it’s using." Target leaves so you smack them. While "is leaving" might make for better grammar, it's not phrased as "left" nor "has left" which would be required if the target successfully exited to the next square.
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Generally speaking reactions happen in response to / at the same time as the trigger. Otherwise many of them wouldn't function properly, as they often times effect the triggering event, such as Shield Block reducing damage, nimble dodge giving a bonus to AC, and so on.
For Attack of Opportunity specifically I've typically seen it be ruled as effectively happening before the movement, manipulate action, etc. goes off, as this seems to be consistent with what it can do. For example, you wouldn't be able to attack a fleeing creature if after the first 5ft of movement made them leave your reach, you couldn't disrupt a manipulate action on a crit if they already completed said action, and so on.
There is one exception to this, though, as laid out in the Core Rulebook [474], which states:
Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.
Some actions, such as Step, specifically state they don’t trigger reactions or free actions based on movement.
So it seems as though specifically for move actions that don't involve leaving a square within your reach the reaction doesn't trigger until after the move action is completed. This comes up a fair bit for prone targets, who, because of this rule, will no longer be prone when the attack of opportunity goes off.
So it seems as though specifically for move actions that don't involve leaving a square within your reach the reaction doesn't trigger until after the move action is completed. This comes up a fair bit for prone targets, who, because of this rule, will no longer be prone when the attack of opportunity goes off.
Which is useful for a character who readies an action to trip the opponent again when they stand up. Otherwise they would trip them before they stood up (while they were still prone) and then they would finish the process of standing up.
I haven't considered this edge case before. X strides directly away from Y who has AoO and 5' reach. Thanks for posing the question.
The rules don't just say Y gets the AoO. They specify within reach as part of the trigger. This really could have been written more clearly, but re-reading everything, I find myself on the side of this scenario not triggering AoO. Although, the movement starts within reach, the trigger doesn't meet its requirements until X has left its square. At this point X is no longer within reach.
I can argue X already satisfied the "within reach" parameter, but now they're out of Y's reach, so how can Y hit them with an AoO when the CRB points out in the AoO text and p474 that the attack occurs after the 5' of movement?
I'd like to hear arguments to the counter to see how that changes my opinion or not.
I'd like to hear arguments to the counter to see how that changes my opinion or not.
Certainly.
Trigger: A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using.
The scenario you describe is covered by the second (? depends on how you count) part of the trigger - using a move action while within your reach.
The more difficult scenario is when they are already using a Stride action and enter the edge of your reach, then leave your reach again from that square. That could only be covered by that last section - leaving a square within reach as part of a move action being used.
But even still, in that case the reaction's trigger is satisfied. They were within your reach, and they left that square within your reach as part of a move action.
Even if you want to rule that the reaction doesn't happen until after the target has left that square, the result of the trigger occurring (making the Strike against them) doesn't specify that the creature still has to be within your reach. It only has to be within your reach when it leaves the square and satisfies the trigger requirements.
I'll buy that. It satisfies even though they would be out of reach. Still being in reach isn't a consideration. I'll have a hard time arguing for it if someone ever feels otherwise, but ultimately I want to continue playing that way. It makes sense even though the way it's written leaves a little to be desired.
Thanks
Thank you all for the enlightening replies. It makes sense that the target should be within reach during the AoO.
Since you guys are being so helpful, I'm gonna pose another question:
Can a level 10 fighter with Combat Reflexes use AoO twice against the same creature if that creature strides through 2 squares within the fighter's reach?
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Thank you all for the enlightening replies. It makes sense that the target should be within reach during the AoO.
Since you guys are being so helpful, I'm gonna pose another question:
Can a level 10 fighter with Combat Reflexes use AoO twice against the same creature if that creature strides through 2 squares within the fighter's reach?
No, it's still the same Stride action and you can't use two reactions on the same trigger.
If the target would for some reason trigger the attack on one Stride, then Stride again with its next action, you could hit it again.
Hi, folks. Pretty straight up question:
Do creatures trigger an Attack of Opportunity before or after they leave the square they are in?
Reactions are resolved before the triggering action. So if you want to move out of a Fighter's reach, the Fighter uses AoO which is resolved before the movement effectively happens and may even interrupt it (if for example you kill the enemy, it falls in the square it started before having actually left a square).
And the rules are clear: "Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature)." So only one AoO per move action, not one per square.
And the rules are clear: "Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature)." So only one AoO per move action, not one per square.
So, if the creature strides through a square within reach (provoking an AoO) and then leaves the fighter's reach during the same move action (technically provoking another AoO), the fighter can only make one AoO because reactions are limited to "once per move action"?
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And the rules are clear: "Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature)." So only one AoO per move action, not one per square.So, if the creature strides through a square within reach (provoking an AoO) and then leaves the fighter's reach during the same move action (technically provoking another AoO), the fighter can only make one AoO because reactions are limited to "once per move action"?
Yep. It's under Move Actions that Trigger Reactions, which should probably be linked in AoO rules, since there's a couple unique things in there that are laid out far more clearly than the general Reaction rules.
I haven't considered this edge case before. X strides directly away from Y who has AoO and 5' reach. Thanks for posing the question.
The rules don't just say Y gets the AoO. They specify within reach as part of the trigger. This really could have been written more clearly, but re-reading everything, I find myself on the side of this scenario not triggering AoO. Although, the movement starts within reach, the trigger doesn't meet its requirements until X has left its square. At this point X is no longer within reach.
I can argue X already satisfied the "within reach" parameter, but now they're out of Y's reach, so how can Y hit them with an AoO when the CRB points out in the AoO text and p474 that the attack occurs after the 5' of movement?
I'd like to hear arguments to the counter to see how that changes my opinion or not.
It's more-so just the way reactions work. It might sound weird, but some of them kind of "go back in time" based on the wording of it. In this case what I'm referring to is the "leaves" part of the AoO trigger, when really it's more like they're "leaving" in practice, i.e. they're still in that square if the action gets disrupted. They never actually left the fighter's reach.
Same with something like Reactive Shield whose trigger is "An enemy hits you with a melee Strike." Not attacks you, but hits you. Then, in the body of the reaction it gives a way to potentially not get hit in the first place.
There is one exception to this, though, as laid out in the Core Rulebook [474], which states:
So it seems as though specifically for move actions that don't involve leaving a square within your reach the reaction doesn't trigger until after the move action is completed. This comes up a fair bit for prone targets, who, because of this rule, will no longer be prone when the attack of opportunity goes off.Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.
Some actions, such as Step, specifically state they don’t trigger reactions or free actions based on movement.
I wonder if this is intended to work the same way for Stand Still that it does for Attack of Opportunity?
It seems weird that a crit from Stand Still would not prevent someone from standing up from prone.
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Those aren't even the most extreme examples.
Shield Block: An enemy is in the phase of an attack where they are dealing damage. Go back in time and put your shield in the way.
Halfling Luck (and several other Fortune effects): You fail a saving throw. Go back and try again.
Nudge Fate even talks about warping time a bit.
The way I reconcile this and don't break immersion is to separate mechanics from narrative. Mechanics happen first - you make your decisions and your checks as needed. This is also where any reworking and going back in time happens. Then once all the mechanics are resolved, the narrative happens. The scene and the outcome are described in a consistent manner that at least closely resembles the outcome from the mechanics. No time travel happens in this phase (aside from a few spells that do actually warp time).
To clarify, I am talking about mechanics here.
You can't "disrupt" an action that has already been "completed", can you?
The Stand Still vs. standing up issue has been discussed multiple times. I don't think we ever got a clarification from Paizo on the matter.
If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.So it seems as though specifically for move actions that don't involve leaving a square within your reach the reaction doesn't trigger until after the move action is completed. This comes up a fair bit for prone targets, who, because of this rule, will no longer be prone when the attack of opportunity goes off.I wonder if this is intended to work the same way for Stand Still that it does for Attack of Opportunity?
It seems weird that a crit from Stand Still would not prevent someone from standing up from prone.
Personally I would rule it as a case of specific overrides general and Stand Still in particular is allowed to disrupt standing up, but I don't think there's exactly a clear answer on this one with the current wording.
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There is one exception to this, though, as laid out in the Core Rulebook [474], which states:
So it seems as though specifically for move actions that don't involve leaving a square within your reach the reaction doesn't trigger until after the move action is completed. This comes up a fair bit for prone targets, who, because of this rule, will no longer be prone when the attack of opportunity goes off.Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.
Some actions, such as Step, specifically state they don’t trigger reactions or free actions based on movement.
I wonder if this is intended to work the same way for Stand Still that it does for Attack of Opportunity?
It seems weird that a crit from Stand Still would not prevent someone from standing up from prone.
For standing up from prone: That is a move action that does not cause the character to leave the square. The general rule would mean that the trigger would happen after the stand up action is finished.
For Attack of Opportunity, that means that the character is not prone when resolving the attack roll.
For Stand Still, it specifically says that it can disrupt any move action. So for this, I would follow the specific trumps general. The move action happens; the trigger happens at the end of the move action; Stand Still then (mechanically) goes back in time and disrupts that move action - but only if the attack is a critical success. So mechanically the character is not prone when resolving the attack roll, but if it crits, then the character doesn't finish standing up and ends up prone at the end of the action/reaction pair.
That is the best mechanical ruling that I can come up with for that particular pile of text anyway.