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I'm optimistic about Pathfinder Nexus. It's got the potential of helping quite a few people get into the system. Lots of people are looking for a DND Beyond clone after switching from 5e.
I'll be keeping an eye on it to see if it's features and convenience live up to the prices!
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I don't think the intent of OP was to suggest that this is a result of the Union issues, just to point out that it's pretty bad timing (at least that was my take).
I understand that it's an optional service, but it's modeled after a service that I consider among the worst in the industry. It alienates a large portion of the community; its unattractive or worse to both those that paid well to get the original material but don't have hundreds more dollars of disposable income and those that don't even have the money to buy all the source books, relying on friends and Nethys.
It's unnecessarily expensive, even more so than Lone Wolf's product which I already considered too expensive in its current iteration. Add to it that I don't see much coming from it beyond requiring it for online games, there seems to be no benefit over other resources available.
Finally, Paizo is one of the flagship companies of the hobby, and I'd hope that they choose to set a good example for the industry rather than follow WotC's wake.
And do what exactly? Make another company give their products away for free?
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This platform is definitely not for me, but I'm happy for anyone else it benefits. Definitely, a sign of growth in the hobby/brand, and maybe one day it will be of interest to me. Currently, there are several things I find concerning. I'll never take part in a platform that makes me repurchase content I've already bought 1-2x before. I'm not a fan of "we're doing early access so the customers can help shape the platform." No, you're doing early access so you can start collecting money from people. Meanwhile, they won't even share what their final vision of the product is. All they've shared is pdf reader, video/text chat, and more that we won't disclose but trust us it's amazing. Also not surprising the CDO is one of the co-founders of DND Beyond.
Separately, this obviously has nothing to do with the union and it's rather silly that's being brought up.
I made my peace with repurchasing content I already own when I got into Fantasy Grounds.
I'm just not going to do it a second time, otherwise I'd be all over this. :)
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Seems like a natural progression from paizo's recent moves towards a more virtual-friendly game. They've licensed Owlcat Games to give us CRPGs of popular 1e APs, they've been enhancing the quality of their PDF maps to help VTT users, they officially paired up with Archives of Nethys to create a consistent and official online ruleset, and they worked with Foundry to make VTT bounties. Their biggest competitor has a very successful model for virtual play that gives players the rules and campaign management tools built into one virtual toolset app, Paizo reached out to the makers of that app to try something for their game. It's not like there hasn't been a push to get more virtual products for Pathfinder or anything, and while the pay structure is undesirable for me I understand that D&D Beyond gets pretty great reviews from the people who do buy in.
Doesn't look like it is for me, I have plenty of stuff in Foundry and the Archives of Nethys for now, but for people who like the quality and style of D&D Beyond I hope this new product works fantastically. It might even make the move from 5e to PF2e for groups so inclined easier because there is a comfortable format and quality expectation in Pathfinder Nexus.
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Seems like a natural progression from paizo's recent moves towards a more virtual-friendly game. They've licensed Owlcat Games to give us CRPGs of popular 1e APs, they've been enhancing the quality of their PDF maps to help VTT users, they officially paired up with Archives of Nethys to create a consistent and official online ruleset, and they worked with Foundry to make VTT bounties. Their biggest competitor has a very successful model for virtual play that gives players the rules and campaign management tools built into one virtual toolset app, Paizo reached out to the makers of that app to try something for their game. It's not like there hasn't been a push to get more virtual products for Pathfinder or anything, and while the pay structure is undesirable for me I understand that D&D Beyond gets pretty great reviews from the people who do buy in.
Doesn't look like it is for me, I have plenty of stuff in Foundry and the Archives of Nethys for now, but for people who like the quality and style of D&D Beyond I hope this new product works fantastically. It might even make the move from 5e to PF2e for groups so inclined easier because there is a comfortable format and quality expectation in Pathfinder Nexus.
Yeah, it occurs to me that the average forum user is almost certainly not the target market for this product - it is aimed instead squarely at people who are still getting into the game and don't already own all the books.
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I'm ready for Nexus. I was a big fan of DDB. Dont like it? Okay that's fine, don't buy into it. It's not a hard concept.
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It alienates a large portion of the community
I've seen you say this a few times but... in what way? I don't use this product and I can't see continuing to not use this product somehow alienating me or fundamentally changing my gameplay experience.
While the content looks very much along the lines of DnD Beyond, the big difference I see is that Pathfinder content is available through more venues. If you're looking for the content for free or you want PDFs, those are there.
I don't like that there's only one way to get the D&D rules digitally, but that's thankfully not the case with Pathfinder (and Starfinder, which will hopefully get something similar down the line).
I'm not sure if I'm going to re-buy content I already have PDFs for, but the deal of getting the PDFs for purchases made moving forward is pretty nice.
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If this is a prelude to getting rid of Archives of Nethys, cracking down on such great services as Pathbuilder, and locking everything behind a pay wall, my friends and I will be most likely be done with Pathfinder.
If it's something "extra" then I just hope it offers up a product or service not already provided for free; otherwise I just don't see it becoming successful.
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If this is a prelude to getting rid of Archives of Nethys, cracking down on such great services as Pathbuilder, and locking everything behind a pay wall, my friends and I will be most likely be done with Pathfinder.
If it's something "extra" then I just hope it offers up a product or service not already provided for free; otherwise I just don't see it becoming successful.
Do you honestly think Paizo is that dumb?
Doing an about-face on Archives of Nethys after making AoN the official source for their content would be the single most shoot-yourself-in-the-foot business decision any business has made since M&Ms turned down ET.
Not to mention the stuff already released under OGL is out there in the wild already and as far as I know you can't really retroactively un-OGL something once it's published under the OGL.
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If this is a prelude to getting rid of Archives of Nethys, cracking down on such great services as Pathbuilder, and locking everything behind a pay wall, my friends and I will be most likely be done with Pathfinder.
If it's something "extra" then I just hope it offers up a product or service not already provided for free; otherwise I just don't see it becoming successful.
Paizo has already stated those services will not be going anywhere. Granted that could change, but it doesn't sound like that's their intention.
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I'm on a wait and see viewpoint but I am worried that they could start shutting down or limiting access to new game info or rules to existing products thru a exclusivity of licensing approach. I really wouldn't want to see products like Pathbuilder , Wander's Guide or Foundry VTT get handicapped just so Pathfinder Nexus can be promoted, while they might not do this it is a very common business practice to increase revenue streams.
Hopefully Paizo continues follow their open community-based support and doesn't go the way of walled off garden approach but time will tell.
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I'm on a wait and see viewpoint but I am worried that they could start shutting down or limiting access to new game info or rules to existing products thru a exclusivity of licensing approach. I really wouldn't want to see products like Pathbuilder , Wander's Guide or Foundry VTT get handicapped just so Pathfinder Nexus can be promoted, while they might not do this it is a very common business practice to increase revenue streams.
Hopefully Paizo continues follow their open community-based support and doesn't go the way of walled off garden approach but time will tell.
To the best of my knowledge, they literally can't do that - they've published their content under the OGL, so unless that somehow changes, the tools you've listed are simply using the OGL license. Archives of Nethys could theoretically lose their rights to display the Bestiary art, which is part of their affiliation with Paizo and not covered by the OGL, and have their CUP license revoked and have to remove the Golarion-specific terms, I guess? But something like Pathbuilder is using the OGL exclusively (which is why there are no Golarion-specific terms used).
I've been hoping Paizo would encourage a service similar to this, seeing how useful it can be for players. However paying again for 'books' is a big problem with dndbeyond, and will be even more of a problem with Pathfinder since it has a lot more books (and a lot fewer players). I supect Nexus might fail if it tries to copy that part of the dndbeyond business model. The 'discount on books you already own' doesn't work for me or others that buy our books from a local game store or supplier, which I do.
I'd suggest going with a monthly subscription only, whilst providing all book content (in a digital form) to subscribers for no extra charge. Or have a 2-tier subscription price where the higher tier includes all book content in that price.
As a user of plenty of digital tools, I already own all the physical books and a fair few pds too. I would pay a subscription for Nexus but there's absolutely no way I'm paying again for those books. It's just not going to happen. Asking me to do so will drive me away from a service I'd otherwise happily pay for. Looking at other community responses here and elsewhere, it's clear I'm not the only person who feels that way.
I'm sure there are ways to make up some revenue even without paying for the 'books' a second time. Extra digital content such as very-high-rez maps for VTTs can persuade people to pay a bit more.
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I'm sort of confused, how is "owning a physical version of the book" not sufficient to use the rules in that book in basically any context?
Is it just the automated features of the program that require you to rebuy the book?
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Below is a post by staff on Demiplane forum about the pricing
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Thanks for the feedback, and I will be straightforward and transparent with our response to it - the economics of our licensing agreement make this the case.
For all future releases, you will be able to take advantage of the Pathfinder Nexus + PDF pricing. For those previous purchases, we have to make those adjustments based on the way our licensing works.
We (naturally) felt it was still very worthwhile to allow for as much of a discount as possible on those previous purchases instead of the alternative of providing no discount.
Thanks again!
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The pricing of 29.99 is for unavoidable economics of them needing a license from Paizo. Also have a physical copy and a digital one are two different and only the price is comparable. It should also be noted when buying your also paying for the integration of the tools which should become a better and better deal over time.
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It alienates a large portion of the communityI've seen you say this a few times but... in what way? I don't use this product and I can't see continuing to not use this product somehow alienating me or fundamentally changing my gameplay experience.
I guess the way I see it, and commented as much in the blog thread is that Nexus will add another fiscal impairment to what is already an expensive enterprise for those looking to play the game. Now it can be argued that entry level Pathfinder is actually free given the existence of AoN, but the books are expensive, the PDF’s not inexpensive given they aren’t actually real (much like money) compared to say potatoes or water and Nexus will commodify what is already free and cater to a caste who have plenty of access to fresh water and brushed potatoes.
So the alienation occurs to those poorer and technologically disadvantaged - I see a lot of communication here on Paizo about inclusiveness and diversity, but capitalism insists that the downtrodden stay down and have to pay (either for data or networking or platform) to play imaginary games of fantastic ideas.
As for those who would wish that folx who “don’t like it” relatively “don’t need to buy in” - you are right. No ine needs to buy RPGs, but discussing the pros and cons can lead to a fairer more egalitarian society.
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And with regard to this apparently from Demiplane on their forum:
“ We (naturally) felt it was still very worthwhile to allow for as much of a discount as possible on those previous purchases instead of the alternative of providing no discount.”
Why do they say (naturally)? Is it to make folx think they are somehow paragons of virtue? Why doesn’t it read “We felt it was worthwhile to give our community free access to the entire ruleset in line with other providers like Archives of Nethys, and recoup our operating costs elsewhere. Naturally!” ?!?
Because it is a business venture. This isn’t a “benefit to the community” it’s a capital raising venture Paizo is advertising to hopefully grow the community. But it does alienate some of the current community. Who are either already multiple invested (Paizo/HLO/Roll20 etc) or have invested in free platforms that provide an analog to Nexus. So a bifurcation occurs between old and new players. Not that this isn’t just what disruptive innovation does - it is entirely the point. And more power to them. But it should be recognised for what it is. A capital raising venture.
Lastly: I think it is very important to understand that “buying the books again” is not what is happening here. You are paying for the effort of hosting the content/data/ruleset on Nexus to be used on/at Nexus with ease. It is conceivable a new player could purchase a new PDF and use Nexus offline (if such capability is possible) and then never use video hosting/chat etc.
But whether that effort or hosting should cost you anything is entirely between you and Demiplane. Your choice. To engage in their capital raising venture. Don’t look at me for advice. I’ve bought things before. More than once. After a while it made me feel debased every time I did it. I really don’t like the smell of capitalism in the morning. Or anytime…
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"“We felt it was worthwhile to give our community free access to the entire ruleset in line with other providers like Archives of Nethys, and recoup our operating costs elsewhere. Naturally!” ?!?"
How do you propose that? have to watch a certain number of adds before they can search options/look up their characters?
"But it does alienate some of the current community."
A small handful I'd wager, did HL/Foundry/Roll20/AoN alienate the community?
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I guess the way I see it, and commented as much in the blog thread is that Nexus will add another fiscal impairment to what is already an expensive enterprise for those looking to play the game.
But it doesn't? "Another fiscal impairment" suggests that the game won't function without Nexus, which isn't true. I mean, you point out right afterwards that aon exists and that nothing Nexus is offering is necessarily innovative or outside what is already available.
But it should be recognised for what it is. A capital raising venture.
Who is this directed at? Nobody has suggested it wasn't.
IDK, it's okay to just not like or be interested in a product. I'm not sure all the grandiose pontificating really does much here.
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Not sure why everyone thinks Paizo's going to yank the license out from under Archive of Nethys just because they're offering other options.
This is like getting mad that HeroLab exists when Pathbuilder does. I like Pathbuilder more because I think HeroLab charges an arm and a leg, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone using it.
Personally I don't see the appeal except as an easy way to store characters across multiple games or to brag on your character easily. I have cloud-stored excel sheets for that, but I'm old school.
If anything, I don't see the appeal when PF2tools has so much content available for it. The only thing I would maybe use it for is a loot generator based on the classes in my group -- but that's a pretty complicated ask!
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I have cloud-stored excel sheets for that, but I'm old school.
...Cailean's breath I feel old.
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If a company invests time and effort in a given project, they cannot spend them on another project. Simple as that.
And if they feel the best way to get return on their investment is to stop free access to their products, barring any legal constraints, they will do so.
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Me, I just hope the recent flurry of money-making projects that seem pretty innovative (and many 5e inspired), like Infinities and Nexus are not the preamble to Paizo being sold.
Selling licenses like that, and the fact that Paizo recently unionized and is not by any account making crazy money has me thinking that no-one would buy the company. It's not an untapped gold mine, because unless you're D&D or a big once-off kickstarted RPG maybe, ttrpgs are not big money makers.