Does TWF (feat) and effortless lace stack?

[Noganov]

Hi all!
Please help me! I want to play str slayer with TWF combat style, and use two Falcata, one of they wrapped the effortless lace.

The effortless lace effect is:

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the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.

The Two-Weapon Fighting (feat) doesn't say nothing about light melee weapon:

click:

Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.

And finally, if we read the Two-Weapon Fighting in combat chapter, there is a mention of light weapons:

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If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Now we can see:
1) The effortless lace make effect on feats/spells/special abilities.
2) TWF feat doesn`t say anything about light weapon
3) The rules about TWF is not a feat for determining effortless lace effect

So... Effortless lace doesn`t work in my build?
The penalty is -4/-4, or -2/-2?

[MrCharisma]

Yup, if the weapon in your offhand is a Light Weapon (whether actually light, or a 1-handed weapon with an Effortless Lace) you'll be at -2/-2.

That's pretty much what an Effortless Lace is for.

[Noganov]

MrCharisma wrote:

Yup, if the weapon in your offhand is a Light Weapon (whether actually light, or a 1-handed weapon with an Effortless Lace) you'll be at -2/-2.

That's pretty much what an Effortless Lace is for.

But falcata doesn`t a light weapon...

Am I wrong?

I want to believe that the penalty is -2, but some people say the E.Lace do not work with TWF feat, because on the description of TWF (combat feat) no mention about light weapon....

Sorry for my English....

[zza ni]

while rule-lawyer's RAW say it won't work
i'd rule it should and the one writing the text thought about the feat and forgot that in the raw the penalty is from the game mechanic.

i mean it would be darn weird to say, oh this lace make the morningstar as light as a dagger for when i use my special ability x y z. but when i try to wield it at the same time with an other weapon on my other hand it suddenly stops working and the weapon grow heavy, BUT only when i swing the other weapon. if i don't it goes back to be light.

hack when using weapon finesse and 2wf at once it's both light AND one handed weapon in the same time!

[SheepishEidolon]

Noganov wrote:

3) The rules about TWF is not a feat for determining effortless lace effect

So... Effortless lace doesn`t work in my build?

Technically / by strict reading / by RAW, it does not work (as zza ni already said). Fighting with two weapons is not a feat, not a spell and not a special weapon ability.

But your GM might still allow it. And if not, there is the Hand's Autonomy feat. Which lowers TWF penalties for two falcatas to -2/-2. You will need the Possessed Hand feat, though.

[Noganov]

zza ni wrote:

while rule-lawyer's RAW say it won't work

i'd rule it should and the one writing the text thought about the feat and forgot that in the raw the penalty is from the game mechanic.

i mean it would be darn weird to say, oh this lace make the morningstar as light as a dagger for when i use my special ability x y z. but when i try to wield it at the same time with an other weapon on my other hand it suddenly stops working and the weapon grow heavy, BUT only when i swing the other weapon. if i don't it goes back to be light.

hack when using weapon finesse and 2wf at once it's both light AND one handed weapon in the same time!

I think like you! If this item make weapon lightly for feats determining, why he doesn't work for TWF!?

Up to GM...

P.S. falcata with improve critical have 17-20 x3 crit =)))

[Noganov]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Noganov wrote:

3) The rules about TWF is not a feat for determining effortless lace effect

So... Effortless lace doesn`t work in my build?

Technically / by strict reading / by RAW, it does not work (as zza ni already said). Fighting with two weapons is not a feat, not a spell and not a special weapon ability.

But your GM might still allow it. And if not, there is the Hand's Autonomy feat. Which lowers TWF penalties for two falcatas to -2/-2. You will need the Possessed Hand feat, though.

Yes, I know about this feat, but this is TWO feats!

If I take them, I'm can't take another cool feats, like power attack or quick draw or weapon focus... =(

[Diego Rossi]

As the other posters said, RAW it doesn't work, RAI almost all GM (me included) will say that it works.

Why it doesn't work RAW? Because fighting with two weapons doesn't require any feat, any character with two arms can do it. The feat reduces the modifier.

RAW effortless lace affects:
1) what can be used with Weapon finesse;
2) what feats can be used with the weapon;
3) what spells can be used with the weapon;
4) what weapon ability can be used with the weapon.

It doesn't affect things like the fighter weapon training (i.e. the falcata doesn't move into the Blade, light weapon group), it doesn't allow the weapon to satisfy class requirements to use light weapons, and so on.

[Noganov]

Diego Rossi wrote:

As the other posters said, RAW it doesn't work, RAI almost all GM (me included) will say that it works.

Why it doesn't work RAW? Because fighting with two weapons doesn't require any feat, any character with two arms can do it. The feat reduces the modifier.

RAW effortless lace affects:
1) what can be used with Weapon finesse;
2) what feats can be used with the weapon;
3) what spells can be used with the weapon;
4) what weapon ability can be used with the weapon.

It doesn't affect things like the fighter weapon training (i.e. the falcata doesn't move into the Blade, light weapon group), it doesn't allow the weapon to satisfy class requirements to use light weapons, and so on.

Thanks! That's all what I need know! =)))