Recall Knowledge DCs by Rarity Data


Thaumaturge Class


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I've seen the topic of Recall Knowledge's poor interactions with Rarity discussed to death already, but I realized I hadn't actually seen a visual representation of the data. I knew average rarity went up with level, but I did not know the exact numbers. This pushed me to make a table and chart using Exocist's wonderful spreadsheet of official PF2e monsters using data scraped by Easytool.

TL;DR, it's not pretty.

This data shows that before any other changes are made to the class, Find Flaw's interactions with rarity must be addressed. It does not matter how it is addressed to fix this issue, be it still using RK but ignoring rarity, using Perception, or not using a roll at all. The numbers show that creature rarity goes up significantly as you level up, so the Thaumaturge will, on average, get progressively worse at activating their core class mechanic.

This issue already exists for other class paths as well, such as the Mastermind Rogue, but it is at its worst with the Thaumaturge. Ideally, the issue is fixed for both. At minimum, the Thaumaturge should not have to deal with it.

Here's the raw data for those that want it.

Liberty's Edge

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Thanks for the data and charts.

I agree completely about the core problem and I think the Thaumaturge should not be based on RK AND RK should be clarified anyway.

Note though that, at level 18, you can get +4 item (Major Cognitive Mutagen) +4 status (Scroll of 9th-level Pocket Library) +4 circumstance (Thorough Reports feat enhanced thanks to Scrollmaster dedication) to your base RK proficiency of +31 (CHA 20 included) and the ability to roll twice when really necessary (once per encounter thanks to Loremaster's Etude). That should put you on an equivalent of +47 to any FF RK check (Thanks to the Bestiary Scholar feat).

So you would usually only fail at your RK check against an level 18 Unique creature (DC 38 for level 18 +10 for Unique =48) on a Nat 1.

Granted, this is if you go for the One True Build that uses everything to max your bonus to RK checks.


You have already acknowledged this but things shouldn't be balanced around a "One True Build". Especially not one involving an Uncommon, faction specific archetype and multiple expensive consumables, one of which reduces your combat effectiveness (despite being a martial character)

Liberty's Edge

Lanathar wrote:
You have already acknowledged this but things shouldn't be balanced around a "One True Build". Especially not one involving an Uncommon, faction specific archetype and multiple expensive consumables, one of which reduces your combat effectiveness (despite being a martial character)

You are extremely right on this.

Note on the last point : The character mitigates the heavy combat drawback of Cognitive Mutagen by having Alchemist MC dedication and the Revivifying Mutagen feat.


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Oh yes i remember seeing this mentioned elsewhere. So you drink it, roll yours find flaws and then heal yourself and end the mutagen's effects

Still - the 14 Int is a bit of struggle for such a MAD class in this build


Lanathar wrote:

Oh yes i remember seeing this mentioned elsewhere. So you drink it, roll yours find flaws and then heal yourself and end the mutagen's effects

Still - the 14 Int is a bit of struggle for such a MAD class in this build

1/2 elf that takes Multitalented don't need to meet the multiclass dedication feat's ability score prerequisites. Granted, you have to wait until 9th to do that.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Lanathar wrote:

Oh yes i remember seeing this mentioned elsewhere. So you drink it, roll yours find flaws and then heal yourself and end the mutagen's effects

Still - the 14 Int is a bit of struggle for such a MAD class in this build

1/2 elf that takes Multitalented don't need to meet the multiclass dedication feat's ability score prerequisites. Granted, you have to wait until 9th to do that.

I had not thought of this. Even higher optimization appears.

TBT I went Halfling for the Luck feats to get more rerolls.

Liberty's Edge

The expensive consumables point reminds me of yet another thing I forgot to mention in the survey.

If you want to stay relevant as a frontliner AND use magic items at peak efficiency like a caster would (scrolls with Scroll Thaumaturgy for example), then you are starving for money. Similar to what happens to the Magus, except that you have zero spellcasting ability of your own (ie that does not cost money).


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I was glancing over all of the item feats - scrolls, talismans, handy esoterica and I noticed that they seemed to clash with both each other and some very very useful combat feats like rule of three and esoteric reflexes

It seems to me that some of these “I have these handy items” feats should be built into the class automatically. Probably not the scroll one. And the esoterica one requires money until the end game unless it is changed

Although now that I think about it…

I’d suggest the whole “esoterica as a toolbox” should point down the path of handy esoterica chain being built into the class and scaled differently . Perhaps getting it earlier but the benefits of both feats spread out ?

And the levels of the scroll and talisman feats changed - given they apply to a base class they should not have to match the archetype feat levels (which I believe they currently do)

Currently I don’t think you can take the scroll and talisman chains without picking lower level feats at higher slots and giving up a fair amount of power on paper for a few extra consumables that are under levelled

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