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I've been looking over the shaman class recently and noticed the unsworn shaman archetype (which appeals to me somewhat) however it got me thinking about divine casters who don't actually worship a god. There's a fair few spells and some class abilities that use a holy symbol as a foci. So what would you do if you had a divine caster that didn't worship a god? . . .
1) Something like the mummy where Benny had a ring with symbols from a wide range of faiths to present and see what works.
2) Have the character chose a god who's symbol they used for these events or make up a personal foci/symbol they have to use instead?
3) Not let them use those abilities to they worship a specific god?
Further complicated by real world religions like shinto that I can see coming from Tien Xa which worship many gods but don't really have a speicific symbol for them. At least not to my knowledge. Even without something like that you can have a cleriic worshiping a pantheon but not a specific god.
Thoughts?
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2b: Make up a personal symbol -or- 4: Use a generic item that focuses your concentration on your faith.
Both in game terms and in real life prayer beads are used by a variety of faiths. Some real-life religions tie specific meanings to specific beads in a strand based on color, position, size, etc. But the generic term “prayer beads” would make for a good focus for a character that worships a concept rather than a deity.
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A Divine Focus is just an item of spiritual significance. It can really be anything.
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Ah I had specific symbols in mind (cross, star of david, crescent and star, etc). Yes your right generic symbol like prayer beads or holy bones would work too.
Although I am now picturing a caster insisting they are using Abadar's toe bone as their holy symbol and refusing to believe otherwise.
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Just because you are not worshiping a god, does not mean you don’t have a holly symbol. A divine caster draws its power from something even if it is a concept or philosophy. Those have symbols that have the same significance as a symbol for a deity.
A lot of people think that they can play a divine caster without a deity and be able to do whatever they want without consequence. It does not work that way. If you “worship” the concept of freedom and derive people of their freedom you lose your powers just as quickly as if you were worshiping a deity and broke their code. In fact they restrictions may be even harder because there is no personality to soften the code. A god can forgive but a concept cannot.
Druids are a good example of this. They could be considered to worship the concept of nature and have items that they consider Holy.
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Just because you are not worshiping a god, does not mean you don’t have a holly symbol. A divine caster draws its power from something even if it is a concept or philosophy. Those have symbols that have the same significance as a symbol for a deity.
A lot of people think that they can play a divine caster without a deity and be able to do whatever they want without consequence. It does not work that way. If you “worship” the concept of freedom and derive people of their freedom you lose your powers just as quickly as if you were worshiping a deity and broke their code. In fact they restrictions may be even harder because there is no personality to soften the code. A god can forgive but a concept cannot.
Druids are a good example of this. They could be considered to worship the concept of nature and have items that they consider Holy.
I see I admit I normally never play divine caster specifically because that worship a higher power doesn't suit me.
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As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
The section above makes it pretty clear that all clerics draw their power from a divine source. A cleric of Justice would be absolutely devoted to the cause and Idea of justice, but not on any specific god. As long as he is upholding the concept of Justice he get the powers of a cleric.
If you want to play a divine caster who does not worship anything an Oracle might be your best bet. A Oracle is given power without any choice. You don’t need to maintain a good relationship with the deity or deities granting you power. You may even actively dislike and work against the powers in question. Oracles also have no need of a divine focus and can cast spells without them even if the spell list a divine focus as a requirement.
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Worship is a loaded term. You don't need to verbally exult the greatness of your deity constantly or shout platitudes at commoners. Live by a god's ideals and represent their interests. That's all that is really needed of a Cleric.
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The Mythic ability "Divine Source (Su)" allows a PC to be such a source.
Divine Source (Su)
You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains. Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral. You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity. Creatures that gain spells from you don’t receive any spells per day of levels higher than your tier; they lose those spell slots. In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains). If you’re a cleric or you venerate a deity, you may change your spell domains to those you grant others. At 6th tier and 9th tier, you can select this ability again, adding one domain and two subdomains to your list each time and adding their spells to the list of those that you can cast.
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As their powers are influenced by their faith, all clerics must focus their worship upon a divine source. While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)
The section above makes it pretty clear that all clerics draw their power from a divine source. A cleric of Justice would be absolutely devoted to the cause and Idea of justice, but not on any specific god. As long as he is upholding the concept of Justice he get the powers of a cleric.
If you want to play a divine caster who does not worship anything an Oracle might be your best bet. A Oracle is given power without any choice. You don’t need to maintain a good relationship with the deity or deities granting you power. You may even actively dislike and work against the powers in question. Oracles also have no need of a divine focus and can cast spells without them even if the spell list a divine focus as a requirement.
That's why I'm looking at them now Clerics to me are always tied to a specific god and their goals but pathfinder has oracles, worship a pantheon or hate the being who gave them their power/curse and shamans who deal with spirits (which to me always makes me think of lower power beings e.g. an object given life through years of love and affction or a spirit of a mountain that's been a focus of worship for generations). Especially with unsworn they may not have the same influence on the shaman's actions and nature as they deal with the spirits of where they are and potentially a single more powerful spirit of a forest or a concept like fire.
The Mythic ability "Divine Source (Su)" allows a PC to be such a source.
Divine Source (Su)
You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains. Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral. You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity. Creatures that gain spells from you don’t receive any spells per day of levels higher than your tier; they lose those spell slots. In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains). If you’re a cleric or you venerate a deity, you may change your spell domains to those you grant others. At 6th tier and 9th tier, you can select this ability again, adding one domain and two subdomains to your list each time and adding their spells to the list of those that you can cast.
Very rare that applies but amusing.
"Who is your god?"
"Me."
"I don't know of a diety named me. Are they an old or local god?"
"No I worship me, me as in I worship myself. Sure I"m just a quasi diety at the moment but that's great. I get some of the powers while still being able to act in the mortal world."
". . ."
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I was just showing that all Divine Sources are not divine in nature.
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You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains.
I believe this will allow you to grant clerical spellcasting ability to any class of follower that falls under your leadership.
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I honestly believe that if you are running into this "problem", then you are playing the wrong class for your chosen concept.
If you are set on a specific class, then literally pick any god that remotely resembles the concept you wish to worship, and just use their holy symbol, or whatever.
It seems that the only time this couldn't be immediately resolved, is if the player was looking for some sort of mechanical advantage from their chosen combination... and at that point, the GM either squashes that munchkin BS, or works with the player to make it work.
As mentioned, classes exist to cast divine spells without worshipping a god or needing a focus... so it's just a matter of aligning the player's intentions with the material that is available. If it's just a player trying to murderhobo or someone is just being difficult for the sake of being difficult, then tell them to GTFOH...
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i liked how they did it back in 2nd edition.
there too, a cleric could have been following a god or an ideal. but they had a specific rule that a cleric who lose their god's given powers (ether by losing their contact to their god or by him cutting them off). could still use spells up to the 4th level, reason being - spells up to 4th level were powered by the cleric's own divine powers. 5th level and above were given by a divine being (or ideal).
i still use that rule in pathfinder, if anything come to it. spells up to 4th level are from the cleric, and their god might not even notice their casting, anything above is directly given by the god they follow.