When I GM, I love giving my players extra stuff to customize their characters with. Recently, I've been toying with the idea of letting them choose between gaining one of the following bonuses: Either they can use the Ancestry Paragon variant rule for extra ancestry feats, or they get a free Relic (or Soul Seed) that auto levels with them.
I think both of these options can add a lot of flavor to a character, but I wanted to get some opinions about how balanced these two choices are compared to each other. Relic gifts seem individually more powerful than ancestry feats. However, I'm only planning to let players give me input about how their relics develop rather than having free reign, and they would get a larger number of abilities overall with the Ancestry Paragon rules.
I'd appreciate any advice on this that a more experienced PF2e gm (or player) is willing to give!
Not sure about the relative power level of the two options. That is a huge amount of options to calculate through when trying to theorycraft it.
Gut instinct thoughts:
Relics can technically be lost or stolen. Since you are the GM, you can make sure that doesn't happen though.
The power and options of the ancestry in question is going to be a big factor in how powerful Ancestry Paragon will end up being.
Keep in mind that on humans Ancestry Paragon gives you the ability to take more class and general feats. Only level 1 ones, but some classes have more then one really good 1st level feats that continue being strong for the characters entire career (for example, the barbarian has raging intimidation, which on top of what it does gives you two skill feats, and sudden charge, which never stops being useful, and as another example, level 1 general feats include fleet, incredible initiative, tough, armour proficiency and weapon proficiency)
Additionally, feats are generally always on, while relics often take up space (either having to be held or worn) that could be used by other magic items. If the relic has interact listed as part of the activation of its gifts, you need to be holding it or have a free hand to use it.
A sword that is a relic is great, until you find a specific magic sword that has a bunch of property runes baked into it (like a holy avenger) (by default relics can't get property runes, though there are two mechanisms through which GMs can either allow or give property runes for relics*), and then have to choose whether to consign your relic to it's scabbard forever.
Most relic gifts also require you to spend actions to activate them.
I think that after you consider all of that, relics aren't too much more powerful than Ancestry Paragon. It's largely a choice between having solid permanent effects or more powerful activatable effects that require you to choose between the relic and other magic items you could use instead.
*I generally go with just allowing players to put property runes on relic weapons/armour, it keeps them competitive with other magic weapons and armour as long as players invest gold in applying the runes.
Keep in mind that on humans Ancestry Paragon gives you the ability to take more class and general feats.
General feats, yes. General Training says that you can take it multiple times.
Class feats, no. Natural Ambition does not.
Thanks for the thoughts! I hadn't really taken into account that many ancestry feats are 'constant' abilities while relics require activation. You're both right about certain ancestry feats being powerful as well. I had been focused on things like comparing a dragon relic's breath weapon with a kobold breath weapon, but I guess even in those cases a relic can't be used as often even if it is more powerful. It seems like things will work out fairly well, but I'll just have to see what happens.
I am planning to allow players to put property runes and such on Relic weapons and armor, at their own cost of course ;)
"Giving players either a free Relic or Ancestry Paragon. Are these equal choices?"
It really doesn't depend on the ancestry: some I struggle to find enough to take feats I like with the normal amount of ancestry feats and some I wouldn't have enough with Paragon to take all I'd want.
Relics can enable your character concept quicker: at 1st level you can have Return on a throwing weapon for instance, meaning your thrown build works right out of the box using a single weapon.
With the Adopted Ancestry feat and Heritages it it pretty simple to find enough good feats.
Adopted Ancestry into Human solves most problems. It really only implies a long term association with humans, its not an actual adoption. So roleplaying wise it should be fine for most concepts.
It really doesn't depend on the ancestry
I meant it really does depend on the ancestry. Not sure how I messed that up.
With the Adopted Ancestry feat and Heritages it it pretty simple to find enough good feats.
Adopted Ancestry into Human solves most problems. It really only implies a long term association with humans, its not an actual adoption. So roleplaying wise it should be fine for most concepts.
That can be done but it means then that you're down a general feat, skill feat or a heritage benefit to do so. It would also mean you might have to take ancestry feat you're not excited for before your adopted kicks in. It's not too big a deal but it might affect how equal some might see the options.
That's a choice that is always available and I often go down that path.
There is a cost for flexibility. That's not a problem to be fixed.
Equal? If you are looking at equality at that level then I don't want it. It's too bland. Give me variety instead. I prefer to consider the whole package.
That's a choice that is always available and I often go down that path.
I do to but this would be akin to tax to use all the free feats for that option: this might not sit well if you weren't inclined to do so without Paragon.
There is a cost for flexibility. That's not a problem to be fixed.
I think it could be seen as a problem to be fixed if you're playing an ancestry [especially one with a low number of ancestry feats] and adopted doesn't fit your character. With core options like a 1/2 elf or gnome though, I could even pick the Ancestral Paragon feat and take a Ancestors oracle along with Ancestry Paragon [14 ancestry feats total] and be happy with it without adopted.
Equal? If you are looking at equality at that level then I don't want it. It's too bland. Give me variety instead. I prefer to consider the whole package.
I think equal over the life of the character, though it's important to look at points where it could feel better or worse.
"Giving players either a free Relic or Ancestry Paragon. Are these equal choices?"
It really doesn't depend on the ancestry: some I struggle to find enough to take feats I like with the normal amount of ancestry feats and some I wouldn't have enough with Paragon to take all I'd want.
Relics can enable your character concept quicker: at 1st level you can have Return on a throwing weapon for instance, meaning your thrown build works right out of the box using a single weapon.
These are good points. On one hand I could say that Ancestry Paragon is meant for people who want to focus on an ancestry's theme. For instance: I would love to run a paragon kitsune. On the other hand, it does make me wonder if I should sweeten things by giving players a free Adopted Ancestry feat to give them more options. Or perhaps I could let them take Adopted Ancestry in place of one of the 1st level ancestry feats? Hmmm.
it does make me wonder if I should sweeten things by giving players a free Adopted Ancestry feat to give them more options. Or perhaps I could let them take Adopted Ancestry in place of one of the 1st level ancestry feats? Hmmm.
They seems like a simple fixes, especially if you let them know that Adopted can be explained in a way simpler to sorcerer bloodlines: IE, it doesn't require that the player has to have direct interactions with the race as some people could balk at adopted as being raised or spending a lot of time with another race as that doesn't fit with the background they have made.
it does make me wonder if I should sweeten things by giving players a free Adopted Ancestry feat to give them more options. Or perhaps I could let them take Adopted Ancestry in place of one of the 1st level ancestry feats? Hmmm.They seems like a simple fixes, especially if you let them know that Adopted can be explained in a way simpler to sorcerer bloodlines: IE, it doesn't require that the player has to have direct interactions with the race as some people could balk at adopted as being raised or spending a lot of time with another race as that doesn't fit with the background they have made.
Additionally if you go the route of treating the Adopted Ancestry similarly to bloodlines, then you can remove the restriction on taking feats from the secondary ancestry that require physiology and anatomy.
So an Elf with Strix bloodline ancestry could still take all of the wing feats for example.
Very clearly into houserule territory here, but that shouldn't stop a good game from moving forward.
I thought there was even some official guidance on having additional half-* heritages for any of the other ancestries. So a half-dwarf heritage, a half-goblin heritage, and so on.
I can't find it though, so maybe I am just imagining things.
I thought there was even some official guidance on having additional half-* heritages for any of the other ancestries. So a half-dwarf heritage, a half-goblin heritage, and so on.
I can't find it though, so maybe I am just imagining things.
The 1/2 elf and orc sections have this under them: "Other Information Other Halves
By default, half-elves and half-orcs descend from humans, but your GM might allow you to be the offspring of an elf, orc, or different ancestry. In these cases, the GM will let you select the half-elf or half-orc heritage as the heritage for this other ancestry. The most likely other parent of a half-elf are gnomes and halflings, and the most likely parents of a half-orc are goblins, halflings, and dwarves."
Yeah, it's more guidance for letting half orc and half elf be used on other ancestries. It's not about turning other ancestries into a heritage.
Keep in mind that every thing that you add in the name of balance has a cost (more complexity), and has diminishing returns.
Ancestry Paragon characters already have to choose two ancestry feats at 1st level, and a total of 11 ancestry feats over their career, and have to keep track of what they all do.
For an extreme example of the complexity of choice of ancestry paragon + adopted ancestry, a half-orc with the elf adopted ancestry at level 1 has to select two feats out of approximately 45 ancestry feats, and the number of options increases as they level (for their final ancestry feat, they have to choose out of approximately 90 options*)
*This is reduced somewhat by things like some of the feats having prerequisites they might not meet, but they still have to look at those feats briefly to see that.