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IMO Savage companion could have more Con and HP to keep be more unique. But I agree that currently there's no advantage to use Savage companions.
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Dex-based companions are the best to take. Nimble template is optimal. Going to stay that way unless Paizo makes some adjustments.
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Wow animal companion defenses shouldn't suffer so much...
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I'd recommend using Deadmanwalking's house rules, which balance them out more.
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Hello,
building characters with animal companions I noticed that the math between Strength based companions and Dexterity base companions is completely off and getting worse and worse the higher level said companions reach. The barding gear, which is supposed to somewhat offset the imbalance between those only works for a very limited time and is completely useless at higher levels, with Heavy Barding being the biggest offender here. .
Yes. I complained about it a long time ago. To their credit they have done something. Paizo have opened up Indomitable Companion to all animal companions. The extra proficiency level in barding offered helps a little.
Still not great from about level 14 though. Then you pretty much have to go with the DEX based animal companions.
The STR animal companions do have some options like grappling that don't work so well for DEX based companions. They do do a little more damage. But a point or two of AC is more than enough to make that advantage moot, and it gets far worse than that.
Its annoying as some of the options are always just terrible. Very much a poor use of design space.
Have a lookat my thoughts on it here
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Wolf, Cat, and Bird are pretty much the best AC choices, yes.
I think you mostly fix it if barding was a little better, or could reach master proficiency somehow?
Way I see it, if Savage Companions got expert proficiency with Barding and there were a few specializations that bumped it up to Master proficiency the way Ambusher & Daredevil bump up the proficiency of Unarmed Defense, things would be moree balanced.
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This, along with the overall fragility of Animal Companions in general as a balance mechanism is something I've said was an issue since the playtest.
The fragility of Animal Companions results in them dying way too quickly for what is generally a major character element/RP decision and creates an awkward "gentleman's agreement" to not target companions at most reasonable tables, making it ineffective as a balance mechanism anyways.
At the tables I've been at the companion gets targetted quite frequently but the other characters try fairly hard to keep it alive (its almost as much a character as its person is).
The companion has gone down a lot but hasn't yet (we just hit 16th level in Extinction Curse) died.
I think animal companions are mostly OK outside of this AC balance with savage. They are fragile, but that just means you don't want them to be the first thing into battle, holding the front line. If other martials are already in the fray, animal damage isn't high enough go draw aggro.
If you send it in ahead of the group and it gets focus fired, it will be a bad time.
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A nimble dex companion actually does quite well defense wise. It is sometimes first in battle to provide flanking. AC is usually comparable to martials except for champion/monk ofcourse.
I've never considered going STR with a companion, balance is way off indeed. Maybe low level with max barding, but depending how you use them, even the actions of the dex ACs are better. Use it for Support: Bird is awesome. Attack with the AC: Wolf for auto knockdown.
This, along with the overall fragility of Animal Companions in general as a balance mechanism is something I've said was an issue since the playtest.
The fragility of Animal Companions results in them dying way too quickly for what is generally a major character element/RP decision and creates an awkward "gentleman's agreement" to not target companions at most reasonable tables, making it ineffective as a balance mechanism anyways.
At the tables I've been at the companion gets targetted quite frequently but the other characters try fairly hard to keep it alive (its almost as much a character as its person is).
The companion has gone down a lot but hasn't yet (we just hit 16th level in Extinction Curse) died.
I also target animal companions normally. Only familiars I avoid to attack once the even represents a risk to mostly creatures in encounters.
Way I see it, if Savage Companions got expert proficiency with Barding and there were a few specializations that bumped it up to Master proficiency the way Ambusher & Daredevil bump up the proficiency of Unarmed Defense, things would be moree balanced.Wolf, Cat, and Bird are pretty much the best AC choices, yes.
I think you mostly fix it if barding was a little better, or could reach master proficiency somehow?
Not sure if it would be totally fair if STR based companion got to the same AC as DEX based ones. 1 point behind would be fine though.
Yes master proficiency in barding should exist, some heavy barding options, and higher level barding runes in the same way that armour runes work.
The problem at the top end is not 1 or 2 points of AC its 5 or 6+
It is of such a scale that I am left with the impression that many animal companions are not supposed to be relevant in high level play. Which is just a bad design decision to invalidate player choices like that.
The difference is enough to where I don't think it is intended.
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The difference is enough to where I don't think it is intended.
Well, people have been pretty vocal about the issue at least since 2e got released (I don't remember what the situation was in the playtest). And it hasn't been fixed. Which kinda implies that it likely IS intentional. Bad design, but intentional bad design.
Or they just don't see it as an issue. Pragamatically, dex based ACs ARE fine so the only problem is that many of the animals are just a waste of printed space. But even if the Dex/Str problem was addressed many would be a waste of space anyway since they're obviously inferior to other options :-)
I also target animal companions normally. Only familiars I avoid to attack once the even represents a risk to mostly creatures in encounters.
It does make sense for enemies to prioritise attacking things that are hurting them first. Mounts that don't attack and familiars are often seen as secondary concerns that can be dealt with later.
Apart from the threat value mounts can be seen as potential loot, or perhaps lunch by some enemies. Which affects how and when they are targeted.
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The difference is enough to where I don't think it is intended.Well, people have been pretty vocal about the issue at least since 2e got released (I don't remember what the situation was in the playtest). And it hasn't been fixed. Which kinda implies that it likely IS intentional. Bad design, but intentional bad design.
Or they just don't see it as an issue. Pragamatically, dex based ACs ARE fine so the only problem is that many of the animals are just a waste of printed space. But even if the Dex/Str problem was addressed many would be a waste of space anyway since they're obviously inferior to other options :-)
I don't think that follows. They could simply have not noticed the issue, or haven't figured out how to reformat the page yet to accommodate it, or they might still be working on what the fix should be. Or maybe there are just other things that are higher priority.
I'd recommend using Deadmanwalking's house rules, which balance them out more.
Personally I would remove all the increases in unarmed defense and barding proficiency. Then simple state that all Animal Companions gain expert unarmed defence proficiency and expert barding proficiency at level 8. Then master at level 14. Or you could trigger it off taking an advanced/specialized feat for a similar result.
Then all the other advanced and specialized animal companion options become reasonable picks. Maybe a little bit of tweaking to do to get it right. But suddenly we are in the right ballpark.
Better reflex saves for a little bit better damage seems fair. AC should be exactly the same. Do you expect str rangers to have worse AC than dex rangers?
Not sure if it would be totally fair if STR based companion got to the same AC as DEX based ones. 1 point behind would be fine though.Yes master proficiency in barding should exist, some heavy barding options, and higher level barding runes in the same way that armour runes work.
I'm not sure that comparison holds exactly, because dexterity has several advantages for PCs it doesn't have for animal companions. Animal companions don't benefit generally benefit from range attacks. Not can they capitalize on a many of the Dex skills. Even for stealth, they are often too big to sneak, can't use it for their own initiative, and lack the actions to use it in combat. And that's without getting into the minion/exploration issues that people bring up for familiars.
Not saying there should be an armor class gap. Just pointing out that pets are different and we shouldn't use PC assumptions.
Yep. I just want most of the options to be reasonably playble so I can choose the flavour I want.
My Alchemist uses her Bird as tank. Animal Companions have extreme survivability due to high AC (higher than PCs during most of their carreer), honorable hit points and low aggro. So, most of the time, they take a hit or two before the enemy realizes they are not the dangerous guys and leaves them alone.
My Animal Companion never got knocked out, even when it was solo tanking encounters. I hardly see how some people manage to "lose" animal companions (unless they are strength-based, obviously).