| Phntm888 |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm posting this in General Discussion because we have a Psychic, and I'm giving them the option of posting their experiences and how they feel about their class, as well.
This game is a PbP played over Discord. The GM decided he wanted to run Malevolence, but that he wanted to play PF2 at higher levels, and using classes that we haven't used yet. So, he's upped the encounter difficulties to more the Mid-Level range, and we're playing the six classes from Secrets of Magic, Guns & Gears, and this playtest. I'm playing the Thaumaturge.
I will try to keep Spoilers to a minimum, but as we are talking about a published adventure, some may be unavoidable.
The GM has made the following rulings with regard to Find Flaws/Esoteric Antithesis:
-I can Roll the Recall Knowledge Check for Find Flaws myself instead of doing it as a Secret Check (for ease of play).
-If I critically fail, I can try the check again against a different creature of the same type.
-The DC does not increase for Success or Failure.
-Esoteric Antithesis only affects a single creature.
==============================
The Build
Human Thaumaturge with Archaeologist Archetype (Free Archetype Variant, non-combat options only)
Background: Barkeep
Ancestry Feats: Natural Ambition, Clever Improviser, General Training
Class Feats: Haunt Cunning, Scroll Thaumaturgy (From Natural Ambition), Esoteric Warden, Thaumaturgic Ritualist, Scroll Esoterica, Sympathetic Weakness, Share Antithesis
Skill/General Feats: Oddity Identification, Hobnobber, Trick Magic Item, Quick Identification, Glean Contents, Assured Identification, Natural Medicine (from General Training), Quick Recognition, Untrained Improvisation (From Clever Improviser), Disturbing Knowledge
Archetype Feats: Archaeologist Dedication, Magical Scholastics, Trap Finder, Archaeologist's Luck, Greater Magical Scholastics
Stats: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 19
Skill Proficiencies: +15 (+18 FF) Arcana (E), +16 Athletics (T), +16 Diplomacy (T), +13 Alcohol Lore (T), +17 (+28 FF) Nature (E), +17 (+20 FF) Occultism (M), +17 (+18 FF) Religion (E), +15 (+18 FF) Society (E), +15 Thievery (E)
Implements: Lantern (Adept), Amulet (Initial)
==============================
The Rest of the Party
Dwarven Magus
Ratfolk Inventor
Half-Elf Gunslinger
Half-Elf Psychic
Kitsune Summoner
===============================
Potential Spoilers Begin Here
We've just begun this adventure today, so not much progress thus far. The very first part of this adventure utilizes the research subsystem to learn more about the manor and the man who built it, Ioseff Xarwin. This research utilizes three skills - Society, Diplomacy, and Library Lore. Possessing two of these, along with the ability to use the third Untrained, I first attempted a Diplomacy check that failed to gather any information. I then tried Society and Library Lore, and managed to learn some information from the latter.
One of the concerns I read in others' playtest threads is that the Thaumaturge doesn't get enough Skill Increases to keep up with RK. I can say that my skill modifiers don't appear to be significantly lower than most of the other players', since the research subsystem is helpful for directly comparing skill modifiers. The only player skill I significantly lag behind I saw is the Magus, who has Master proficiency in Society. The total difference is +5, although Find Flaws brings me closer to being on par with him. I'm certain there will be further skill-related challenges, however, which will give me an opportunity to compare further.
| Phntm888 |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First Combat
We came upon the abandoned town of Crook Cove, having a small discussion about the presence of squatters in the manor. We approached the manor and entered the overgrown garden. Our Ratfolk Inventor noticed a log across the path to the front door seemed to be pulsing. I moved a little closer (20' away) to investigate the log, but couldn't figure out why it was pulsing. The gunslinger threw a rock at it as the Summoner spoke to it in Sylvan, which resulted in the log exploding and revealing three Titan Centipedes. Combat began!
The Titan Centipedes had the Elite template applied, making them 3 level 10 creatures for a Moderate challenge. The GM rolled Initiative for all of us in Foundry, resulting in an Initiative Order of:
Titan Centipede
Magus
Gunslinger
Titan Centipede
Titan Centipede
Psychic
Me (Thaumaturge)
Summoner
Inventor
Using a Block Initiative, we post in any order when our block appears.
Round 1
Thaumaturge HP: 118/118
The first Titan Centipede (1) moved to where it could reach the Gunslinger an I, then attacked both of us, hitting both of us. I took 19 damage, but made my saving throw against its poison (31 on the Fort save).
Thaumaturge HP: 99/118
The gunslinger went, and took a 10' Step thanks to their 10 Paces ability, then shot at the Centipede three times, missing due to poor rolling. The magus cast Enlarge (gaining 15' reach with his Meteor Hammer), and entered Arcane Cascade stance.
The other two centipedes (2,3) used their Trample ability, since between them they could hit the whole party. I again made my saving throw (31 on the Reflex save) to take half damage (12) and avoid being knocked Prone.
Thaumaturge HP: 87/118
For my turn, I used Find Flaws on the centipede (1) that attacked me, getting a 34 on the Nature check. I learned the Titan Centipede had no weaknesses, and about its poison effects (Persistent damage and the Clumsy condition). Since it had no weaknesses, I used Esoteric Antithesis to create a custom weakness, swapped my lantern implement for my amulet implement, moved to attack the centipede (1), and promptly rolled a nat 1. I decided to use one of my 3 Hero Points to reroll it, and I rolled a nat 20 to critically hit the Centipede (1) for 37 damage, plus the custom weakness 7 for 44 damage total, counting Implement's Empowerment.
The Psychic cast repelling pulse on Centipedes 2 and 3 to push them further away. One passed, but the other was thrown backwards into the fence.
The summoner used Work Together, gave his eidolon 3 actions for a successful Primal Roar and an attack, and used his to get out of the way.
Round 2
Titan Centipede (1) attacked my Thaumaturge once and the magus twice. It hit me for 32 damage, 12 of which I blocked with Amulet's Abeyance. I again made the Fort save (28 on the save). It missed the Magus both times.
Thaumaturge HP: 67/118
The Gunslinger moved, then shot twice at Titan Centipede (3), missing once and hitting with the other. The magus used Spellstrike with Produce Flame and critically hit, killing Titan Centipede (2).
Titan Centipede (3) attacks the Inventor, hitting once and crit failing twice.
The Summoner used Act Together to give themselves three actions for an electric arc and used Boost Eidolon. The Eidolon moved to a centipede (3).
For my turn, I attacked centipede (1) twice, with the first attack hitting on a 38 for 17 damage, plus 7 from my custom weakness for 24 damage total. My second attack was a nat 1. Since I was pretty close to half health, I decided to pull back so I could make sure I didn't take too many hits in the next round.
The Inventor attacked Centipede (3) and missed twice. The Psychic used Telekinetic Projectile to attack the same one, hitting for a bit of damage.
Round 3
Centipede (1) decides to trample me, the Magus, and the Gunslinger. I critically fail the Reflex save with a nat 1, getting knocked prone and taking 42 damage.
The Magus and Eidolon did get in some AoOs as it did that.
Thaumaturge HP: 25/118
The Magus moved within reach of Centipede (1) and did a Spellstrike on it. The Gunslinger attacked Centipede (3) and hit once.
Centipede (3) trampled the Magus, the Eidolon, and the Psychic, knocking the Magus over.
The Summoner hit Centipede (3) with a Cone of cold that it saved against, while the Inventor hit me with an elixir of life from their Herbalist archetype (+15 HP). The psychic cast Heal on me for 68 HP.
Thaumaturge HP: 108/118
For my actions, I stood, moved to Centipede (1), and hit it for 16 damage, plus my 7 custom weakness for 23 damage total, killing that one.
Round 4
The Summoner used Called Shot on Centipede (3), hitting it and stupefying it. The Magus stood and crit Centipede (3) with a non-spellstrike hit.
Centipede (3) then attacked the Psychic 3 times, all of the attacks hitting.
With all of us up again, the Magus went and rolled another Crit, this one with a Produce Flame Spellstrike for 68 damage, killing the centipede.
End of Combat
This encounter was a Moderate challenge for our party. I only ever attacked one of the Titan Centipedes, so I never had to switch Find Flaws to a different target, so I didn't have that action economy issue. This class definitely plays like a front-line martial that uses a one-handed weapon. However, I don't feel like I have the defenses or hit points to really stand as a front line combatant. I took two attacks and a successful save against an AoE and was nearly down to half health, and then got knocked even further down the damage track with the crit fail against the Trample. No one else in the party is as much of a front liner, save the Eidolon, so this might be a common occurrence.
Damage-wise, I feel that I'm about on par with the Magus when he does NOT use Spellstrike, but he easily outdamages me using Spellstrike. With a Reach weapon and no threat of AoOs, he could take the action to recharge Spellstrike and use it every turn, completely outclassing me in Damage. Since Damage is pretty much all I bring to the table in combat, I don't think the Thaumaturge holds up its end of the bargain when it's so easily outclassed by another class while using Esoteric Antithesis.
As far as Implements go, the Amulet's defensive power is helpful for damage mitigation, but the fact it only works against the target of Esoteric Antithesis means that when another creature attacks me, it doesn't mitigate damage. It also doesn't give me any way to mitigate damage before my first turn, which is problematic if my character rolls poorly on Initiative - I could easily have been down to half health before my turn if all three Centipedes had made a single attack against me.
The Lantern Implement's ability is cool, but if someone is actually taking the Search Exploration activity (the Inventor), they will likely notice whatever is hidden before it gets into the lantern's 20' radius for the free check. It really seems to make more of a backup option in case the Searcher rolls poorly on their check. We'll see how it goes as we progress further in the AP.
All in all, I enjoyed playing the Thaumaturge in combat, but I definitely feel like I'm going to spend a lot of time soaking up Healing from the other players. It's only one fight, but I think this class would benefit from either more hit points or a more constant form of damage reduction. I think it would also be nice to have other options for Esoteric Antithesis, since that and Find Flaws are the class's core abilities, and it doesn't necessarily feel good to be so consistently outclassed by another player whose class uses their core abilities.
| Phntm888 |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Second Combat
We had our first Thaumaturge rules debate among the players before the GM made his ruling. You can see below. I'll also make a note of where the debate applied in combat.
We've begun exploring the mansion. Our Inventor was curious about a clock and went to go find it, so we tagged along to the second floor. We discovered something hidden in it, and myself, the Gunslinger, and the Inventor set about trying to open the case. We discovered a brain, which the Inventor removed. We're now carrying around a brain in a jar.
We went back down to the first floor and started searching there. We found the house librarian's old room, a reading room, and then we found the library proper. One of the windows was broken, and mist poured into the room, before it resolved itself as three vampiric mists (3 elite vampire masterminds, reskinned).
Once again, the vampire masterminds had the Elite template applied, making this a Level 10 Moderate encounter. Per the Initiative Roll in Foundry, the Initiative order was:
Vampiric Mist 1
Vampiric Mist 2
Gunslinger
Magus
Vampiric Mist 3
The rest of the party, including me.
Round 1
Thaumaturge HP: 108/118
VM 1 attacked the psychic, missing, but then used its dominate ability and dominated the psychic. VM 2 attacked and grabbed the Summoner, but rolled a nat 1 to drink his blood, freeing him from the grapple. Due to the GM's semi-incorporeal description, the Magus interpreted these as ghosts, and proceeded to blast VM 2 with a magic missile. The Gunslinger drew his ghost touch coat pistol and shot VM 2, then used Raconteur's Reload to reload and feint, then attacked again. The feint succeeded, but the shot missed anyway. VM 3 moved, attacked, and grabbed the Summoner's Eidolon.
The Inventor used Overdrive and Megaton Strike on VM3, but missed. The now-dominated psychic was ordered to gather up books and leave through the window to take them to the Reliquary. He did not break the Domination. The Summoner cast Disrupt Undead on VM2 and used Boost Eidolon, and the Eidolon rolled a nat 1 trying to escape the grapple.
For my turn, used Find Flaws on VM 1, rolling a 37 on my Religion check, identifying them as Vampiric Mists that were much more vampire than mist, and finding out about their weakness to Silver, their domination ability, and blood sucking. I then used Esoteric Antithesis as a free action and used Share Antithesis with the Gunslinger, who was adjacent to me, before attempting to use Demoralize on VM 1. Despite rolling a 31 Intimidate, I did not quite succeed.
Round 2
Thaumaturge HP: 108/118
VM 1 moved to the Magus and attacked twice, with the first missing and the second a critical hit. VM2 attempted to dominate the Gunslinger, who saved against the power. The Magus entered Arcane Cascade and used a Shocking Grasp Spellstrike to smash VM 1 with great effect. The Gunslinger drew one of his pistols and shot VM 2, then used Dual Weapon Reload to reload the pistol and fire again. Both shots hit. Rules Debate Occurs Here. The GM then accidentally applied the weakness from Share Antithesis to the Gunslinger's attacks. VM 3 failed 3 times to drain the Eidolon's blood, releasing the Eidolon in the process.
Still dominated, using mage hand to carry some books and carrying others in his hands, the Psychic stepped through the window and into a yard, before being stymied by a locked gate. He continued to be dominated. The Inventor used an Unstable Megaton Strike to hit VM 3 for some good damage. He made the flat check to not break anything, and missed on his other attack. The Summoner had his Eidolon attack VM 3 twice, and then used Disrupt Undead on VM 2.
On my turn, I moved to VM 1 and attacked twice. The first attack was a critical hit, and the second hit as well. We had all three of them in pretty bad shape.
Round 3
VM 1 struck at the Magus, critically hitting him again, then succeeding in grappling him and draining his blood. VM 2 attacked, grabbed, and drained the Gunslinger. The Magus retaliated by recharging Spellstrike and then hitting VM 1, finishing it off and turning it into a cloud of gas that seeped down through the floorboard. This had the side effect of freeing the psychic from his Domination. The Gunslinger got his revenge, as well, finishing off VM 2 (the GM accidentally applied the Weakness to it again), turning that one into mist. VM 3 moved over to the Inventor, Striking him and grabbing him.
The Inventor critically hit VM 3.
On my turn, I ran around to flank with the Inventor and successfully Attacked VM 3, with Weakness applied due to Sympathetic Weakness.
Round 4
Thaumaturge HP: 108/118
The Magus moved into flank with me and used a Regular attack to finish the Vampiric Mist off, which turned into gas and went below the floorboards.
I chose not to attack in the first round after using Share Antithesis with the Gunslinger, because I didn't want to give the Vampiric Mist a full 3 actions against me if it attacked. The GM accidentally applied the Weakness I gave the Gunslinger to VM 2 because he thought that was the one I'd used Find Flaws on. I failed to specify, so that's as much on me as it is on the GM. I will say that I like how Share Antithesis works - so long as the person I share it with can concentrate on the same target. Otherwise, it's a wasted action (see rules debate below).
Sympathetic Weakness is very helpful - not having to use Find Flaws again on VM 3 meant that I could use 2 Strides to get into flanking, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to attack that round.
Looking at the damage numbers after this fight, a Magus using Spellstrike is still likely to outpace the Thaumaturge in damage. For instance, my crit on VM 1 was 42 damage with the weakness. The magus's non-crit Shocking Grasp Spellstrike on the same target was 55 damage. Since he expended a spell slot, that's probably about right, but a Produce Flame Spellstrike dealt 32 damage, and I usually only break 30 on a Crit. However, if he can't get a Spellstrike off, his damage drops to roughly what the Gunslinger's is per shot. The Gunslinger did less damage per hit than I did, but typically hit twice in a round to do slightly more overall. The Inventor's damage is about on par with mine, but that's partially due to having two elemental runes on his Innovation. If I could get off more attacks per round than I usually do, I might still be slightly ahead of the Gunslinger in damage.
Neither Implement's power came up in this fight or the leadup to it.
We had a bit of a debate about how Sympathetic Weakness interacts with Share Antithesis. Because I'd seen some debate about Sympathetic Weakness on the forums, I wanted to make sure that I would be able to use it on the VMs without having to use Find Flaws on each of them. While we were all in agreement on that, I then posed the follow up of whether or not it applied to the Gunslinger's attacks as well.
For reference:
THAUMATURGE
Prerequisites Esoteric Antithesis
You’ve learned how to expand your invocation of esoterica
to apply not just to a specific individual, but other creatures
with similar weaknesses, bringing you greater power. While
you benefit from Esoteric Antithesis, your Strikes also count
towards the weakness of any other creature with the same
weakness your Esoteric Antithesis is set to. For instance,
if you used Esoteric Antithesis on a red dragon, revealing
its weakness 20 to cold and causing your Strikes to deal
additional damage, you would also deal additional damage
to the dragon’s fire elemental minions, which have weakness
10 to cold. No other effects of Esoteric Antithesis apply to
other creatures with the same weakness, and this feat has no
effect when you create a custom weakness in a creature that
otherwise has none.
FEAT 10]
MANIPULATE THAUMATURGE
Prerequisites Esoteric Antithesis
Requirements Your Esoteric Antithesis is set to a weakness its
subject has (not a custom weakness).
You apply esoterica to an adjacent ally’s weapons and body.
That ally’s Strikes apply the weakness of the subject of your
esoterica the same way your Strikes do. This benefit ends
when Esoteric Antithesis ends or you Share Antithesis again.
You can’t share a custom weakness you created with Esoteric
Antithesis, only a weakness the creature has normally.
The source of the debate was the bolded phrase in Share Antithesis. The logic from one player was that if MY Strikes could take advantage of the weakness of all the VMs, and the Gunslinger's Strikes apply the same way MY Strikes do, then the Gunslinger could benefit from Sympathetic Weakness. Another player argued that the base ability of Esoteric Antithesis is modified by Sympathetic Weakness, and Share Antithesis is a separate modification of the base ability, and therefore the Gunslinger could not benefit from Sympathetic Weakness.
In the end, the GM ruled that while Sympathetic Weakness did apply to my Strikes, it did not apply to the Gunslinger's. I'm fine with that ruling, but if any developer reads this thread, adding a line to Share Antithesis about whether or not it works with other Thauamaturge feats like Sympathetic Weakness would help clarify the intended interaction between feats.
The Raven Black
|
Share Antithesis applies to the subject of your esoterica (it is in the sentence you bolded). You only have one such subject : the one against which you used Find Flaws and Esoteric Antithesis.
Sympathetic Weakness allows you to trigger weakness on other creatures, but it does not make them new subjects of your esoterica.
Only a new Find Flaws + Esoteric Antithesis would do this.
| Evindyl |
As the aforementioned psychic in this playthrough, I will in fact add some comments in here, although probably not quite as detailed as my colleague.
My initial comment will be: I am woefully underwhelmed.
As a class which has a developmental path with Telekinetic abilities all over it, I should want to play this character more than I want to go back to 1E and buy a Ring of Telekinesis. That is NOT the case. And while no caster in 1E could hold a lighting device to a Kineticist, there were some ways that the original Psychic class, by getting the spell a level early, was still ahead of this version, which does not get the spell early, AND is at 65% capacity with spell slots.
More shortly.