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Hey can someone talk to me about sorcerer's and meditation books as according to This Page Here
Mainly it is my current understanding that basically any spellbook can be a meditation book if you want, and meditation books come with preparation rituals. A sorcerer can invoke a preparation ritual by burning a spellslot equal to that of the highest spell allowed in the book, or by some arcane means of shenaniganry, preparing 3 spells from said spellbook.
Is this correct?
It would appear so. Yes.
Neat find. Hmm...
VoodistMonk wrote: It would appear so. Yes.
Neat find. Hmm...
Okay...well if you are willing to indulge me then with a thought experiment.
We are an arcane sorcerer...lets say level 10. We have Versatile Spoenaeity and our arcane bond is a bonded item (amulet).
We turn our amulet (which we are treated as having the pre-req item creation feats for and can raise the DC by 5 for whatever we dont have) into an Amulet of Spell Mastery. Since our arcane bond states that our bonded item counts our sorcerer levels count as wizard levels, this should still apply to us, since it gives its benefit to "the wizard" which is us, just like how familiars have "the wizards" skill ranks.
Okay...from here...lets say we prepare 3 spells, 2 third level, and 1 6th level from a spellbook and then tada, now we have the preparation boon.
Does this all fly?
It's kinda hoop-jumpy and quite a grey area. There's some spiral logic going on: "Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object." "It allows the wizard to prepare an additional 6 levels of spells per day."
So, your sorcerer levels do count as wizard levels for determining the powers of your bonded object. But the object itself allows the wizard to prepare extra spell levels. If the object had level-dependent powers your sorcerer levels would improve them. But that's not necessarily the same thing as letting the object grant powers back to you as if you were a wizard. Neither is it explicitly clear that it wouldn't work.
1. As a GM I wouldn't allow it.
2. As a player I wouldn't try to do this, especially in an open game (PFS, etc.) environment where you might have an argument every session.
Belafon wrote: It's kinda hoop-jumpy and quite a grey area. There's some spiral logic going on: "Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object." "It allows the wizard to prepare an additional 6 levels of spells per day."
So, your sorcerer levels do count as wizard levels for determining the powers of your bonded object. But the object itself allows the wizard to prepare extra spell levels. If the object had level-dependent powers your sorcerer levels would improve them. But that's not necessarily the same thing as letting the object grant powers back to you as if you were a wizard. Neither is it explicitly clear that it wouldn't work.
1. As a GM I wouldn't allow it.
2. As a player I wouldn't try to do this, especially in an open game (PFS, etc.) environment where you might have an argument every session.
So if we go over arcane bond it says
ArcaneBond wrote:
At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
So it seems as if you count as a wizard for the sake of your bonded object and how it functions, just like how you'd count as a wizard for the benefits of a familiar and how they function. Like if a familiar's variable ability gives "the wizard" +4 to initative, we get that...so I'm not sure why this is different.
I think this works.
Now, I am no expert... at anything, really... but I actually think this works. Pretty niche, or at least quite specific in its application, but neat nonetheless.
I would allow it at my table(s), if you put all those pieces together, I would consider it bought and paid for...
IluzryMage wrote: So if we go over arcane bond it says
ArcaneBond wrote:
At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
So it seems as if you count as a wizard for the sake of your bonded object and how it functions, just like how you'd count as a wizard for the benefits of a familiar and how they function. Like if a familiar's variable ability gives "the wizard" +4 to initative, we get that...so I'm not sure why this is different.
Right, but it doesn't automatically make you function like a wizard. Just because you count as a wizard when determining the powers of your familiar or your bonded object, that doesn't mean you suddenly gain the ability to prepare spells.
Animal Ally gives you an animal companion "as if you were a druid of your character level -3" but that doesn't make you a druid. A Ring of Sacred Mistletoe gives a bonus to Wild Empathy checks. But it doesn't do anything if you don't have the Wild Empathy ability.
Like I said above, the particular interaction of Arcane bloodline and Amulet of Spell Mastery is a somewhat grey area. I know you've been trying out various ideas for making a spontaneous caster qualify for feats/abilities/items intended for prep casters, especially with Versatile Spontaneity. If your GM is fine with what you want to do, use it. But it isn't a reading that you can insist that every GM must accept or be "wrong."
My question would be: Which of the preparation rituals are you wanting to benefit from? (IMO most of them are pretty worthless, so I would allow it in most cases, but I'd want to know which one you were wanting)
TxSam88 wrote: My question would be: Which of the preparation rituals are you wanting to benefit from? (IMO most of them are pretty worthless, so I would allow it in most cases, but I'd want to know which one you were wanting) It's less that I think any of these preparation rituals are particularly useful, but more trying to see if they are a subsystem that can be interacted with at all.
Belafon wrote: IluzryMage wrote: So if we go over arcane bond it says
ArcaneBond wrote:
At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
So it seems as if you count as a wizard for the sake of your bonded object and how it functions, just like how you'd count as a wizard for the benefits of a familiar and how they function. Like if a familiar's variable ability gives "the wizard" +4 to initative, we get that...so I'm not sure why this is different.
Right, but it doesn't automatically make you function like a wizard. Just because you count as a wizard when determining the powers of your familiar or your bonded object, that doesn't mean you suddenly gain the ability to prepare spells.
Animal Ally gives you an animal companion "as if you were a druid of your character level -3" but that doesn't make you a druid. A Ring of Sacred Mistletoe gives a bonus to Wild Empathy checks. But it doesn't do anything if you don't have the Wild Empathy ability.
Like I said above, the particular interaction of Arcane bloodline and Amulet of Spell Mastery is a somewhat grey area. I know you've been trying out various ideas for making a spontaneous caster qualify for feats/abilities/items intended for prep casters, especially with Versatile Spontaneity. If your GM is fine with what you want to do, use it. But it isn't a reading that you can insist that every GM must accept or be "wrong." Well sure, yeah, I'm not sitting here saying that the amulet lets you prepare spells out of nowhere. It specifically says 6 ADDITIONAL spell levels, and so if you dont have a way to prepare 1, totally fails.
That said, versatile spontaneity allows you to prepare spells, albiet, only one per day. I dont think it'd be too crazy to have a character spend 11,000gp to be able to get a few more spell levels of prep. It doesnt MAKE you a wizard, just count as one for the sake of your bonded object.
It wouldn't really matter if its a spoentenious caster. Similar to the question from uh this thread over here.
Now this is different lets say....annihilation Spectacles. These specifically refer to WIZARD transmutation spells, and technically you cast sorcerer spells, and our bonded object doesnt let us cast wizard spells, only sorcerer spells.
Honestly I am new to the forums. I should put this nonsense in rules questions.
IluzryMage wrote: Honestly I am new to the forums. I should put this nonsense in rules questions. Don't put anything in the rules arena unless you want it to be the focal point of an all-out monkey poo-flinging fight... people seem less aggressive everywhere else. Like this section... you chose correctly, even if by mistake...
VoodistMonk wrote: IluzryMage wrote: Honestly I am new to the forums. I should put this nonsense in rules questions. Don't put anything in the rules arena unless you want it to be the focal point of an all-out monkey poo-flinging fight... people seem less aggressive everywhere else. Like this section... you chose correctly, even if by mistake... Ha...well thank you i suppose. I'm just trying to make sure I can explore the rules to the best of my abilities. Despite appearances, I'm much less interested in general powergaming and much more in expanded interaction udnerstanding...all for the sake of the guides that I tend to write.
I wanted to make sure that the Sorcerer guide I create as a lot of useful information, and it seems like there is...SO MUCH out there that I wanted to include.
You've mentioned your guide writing a couple of times, so I'll throw two unsolicited pieces of advice at you. (Guide to Guide-writing?)
1. If you want your guide to be useful and widely adopted, do not include controversial rules interpretations. If you have to dedicate three paragraphs to explaining how you managed to twist the language to allow something you are going to get nothing but arguments instead of acclaim.
2. If your guide includes a suggestion for putting together an archetype, a 10,000 gp item, and a feat you don't qualify for until 7th level then you aren't making a guide, you are offering character builds. Nothing wrong with that, several people maintain "build archives" but it isn't really a guide.
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