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So the feat shapeless famiilar lets a familiar assume the form of another animal and changeling famiilar lets it assume the same form as its associated being. What is puzzling me is whether I would or wouldn't adjust the famiiliars physical stats. So I'll go through this in order.
Shapeless Familiar - Gains Change Shape universal monster ability and can assume the form of another animal. Functions as beast shape II.
Changeling Familiar - Now functions as alter self and can turn into a child or teenager of the same race as its companion. Specifies it does not grant languages known but does imply they can talk if they know them since it say's they are OFTEN mute not always.
Ok so we have player with a cat familiar that takes shapeless and gains this ability ...
Change Shape (Su)
The creature has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form unless noted otherwise. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
Allowing it to turn into a rabbit or cat as the mood takes it. Then at higher level the player takes changeling allowing it to turn into a human. However this means you have a human with a strength of 3 which seems odd for a teenager. This is further complicated by the fact said cat is a tiny creature now going to human medium which is more than 1 size category larger or smaller and the Alter Self spell makes a specific note that assuming the form of a medium creature does give a +2 bonus to strength.
Now per my reading of the rules you would not change the ability scores as normal for a polymorph spell since it is not noted specifically in the description however the alter self spell does note it.
So am I correct a changeling familiar cat would add +2 to her strength for a teenage human with a strength of 5? Or would it be 3 (no changes) or 11? (polymorph size change of 2 categories + alter self spell) or somhething else?
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If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.Since most familiars are tiny sized, you'd adjust its ability scores according to the rules for polymorph spells first (+4 Str, -2 dex for tiny) before applying the ability score changes from the spell.
Normally yes but the change shape universal ability says specifically you don't normaly get that unless otherwise noted as it is in the alter self spell which changeling familiar uses as its base. Basically I have . . .
Base Rule
Polymorph size change.
Specific rule
Change shape don't adjust unless otherwise noted.
Alter self add 2 to str for medium
But the change shape rule also assumes you only move 1 size category not 2. Hence my wondering which specific rule takes precedence as they conflict.
Now per my reading of the rules you would not change the ability scores as normal for a polymorph spell since it is not noted specifically in the description however the alter self spell does note it.
The "as noted in their description" part of the Change Shape UMA talks about being noted in the description of the ability.
The familiar transforms via Change Shape, and thus "the creature does not adjust its ability scores" applies. What spell is imitated is irrelevant.
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Now per my reading of the rules you would not change the ability scores as normal for a polymorph spell since it is not noted specifically in the description however the alter self spell does note it.The "as noted in their description" part of the Change Shape UMA talks about being noted in the description of the ability.
The familiar transforms via Change Shape, and thus "the creature does not adjust its ability scores" applies. What spell is imitated is irrelevant.
However the specific description of changeling familiar is it functions as alter self and alter self's specfic description states you get dex if becoming small and +2 str if becoming medium.
What part of "the creature does not adjust its ability scores" is unclear to you?
Every polymorph spell (that uses the full polymorph rules) changes ability scores. If that would override the above quoted sentence, that sentence would never apply.
the specific description of changeling familiar is it functions as alter self
The "it" in your sentence is still the Change Shape UMA. You have to use the rules of it, no matter what spell is used. And those rules say "the creature does not adjust its ability scores".
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What part of "the creature does not adjust its ability scores" is unclear to you?
Every polymorph spell (that uses the full polymorph rules) changes ability scores. If that would override the above quoted sentence, that sentence would never apply.
the specific description of changeling familiar is it functions as alter selfThe "it" in your sentence is still the Change Shape UMA. You have to use the rules of it, no matter what spell is used. And those rules say "the creature does not adjust its ability scores".
Mainly that I read that rule as applying to the base rules for polymorph i.e. you change size you adjust stats. Wheras the very first sentence of changeling familiar is . . .
Benefit: Your familiar’s change shape universal monster ability can function as alter self.
It states a change to the base change shape universal monster ability in that it now functions as alter self which has its own unique stat adjustments not part of the universal polymorph ones.
That's what's unclear to me people keep saying "specific rules override general" so which specific rule takes precedance the change shape monster ability or the changeling familiar feat which states change shape now functions as the alter self spell.
If you look up a few monster change shape abilities you'll see they all say what spell they duplicate.
Change Shape (Su) An adult or older astral dragon can assume any humanoid form three times per day as if using polymorph.
SQ change shape (goblin or wolf, polymorph)
SQ change shape (alter self), mimicry, perfect copy
SQ change shape (giant spider; vermin shape I), spider empathy +21, swift shapechanger.
This is telling you which abilities they gain from doing so, not which ability adjustments to apply - because change shape negates those ability adjustments.
Mainly that I read that rule as applying to the base rules for polymorph i.e. you change size you adjust stats.
While I agree that in a vacuum the phrase "the creature does not adjust its ability scores" can be interpreted as such, you're completely ignoring the context. The full sentence reads "This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics)." The whole sentence is about how the ability imitates a polymorph spell, and the text part following phrase in question (the one in parantheses) explicitly says what part of the spell are granted. From the way the whole sentence is constructed, the phrase in question must apply to the ability score changes stated by the spell.
The text about creatures that do get alterations to ability scores makes it crystal clear: "Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description." Per the rules of the English language, the "their" in the last sentence must refer to "these creatures". That means exceptions to the norm for Change Shape are stated in the creature's description, not in the spell's.
If there is a change to ability scores, it must be explicitly stated outside of the polymorph spell. As that's not the case for Changeling Familiar, the familiar's abilits scores are not changed in any way.
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Mainly that I read that rule as applying to the base rules for polymorph i.e. you change size you adjust stats. Wheras the very first sentence of changeling familiar is . . .
Benefit: Your familiar’s change shape universal monster ability can function as alter self.
It states a change to the base change shape universal monster ability in that it now functions as alter self which has its own unique stat adjustments not part of the universal polymorph ones.
Yes, the Change Shape ability now functions as alter self. But it's still the change shape ability. So let's step through what that means.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
Format: change shape (wolf, beast form I); Location: SQ, and in special abilities for creatures with a unique listing.
Benefit: Your familiar’s change shape universal monster ability can function as alter self, and it gains a single alternate form of either Small or Medium size. This form is of a child or teenager of its master’s species, and once chosen cannot be changed.
Now let's look at a familiar with the change shape ability:
SQ change shape (boar, giant spider, rat, or raven, beast shape I)
Senko, are you in agreement that this familiar does not modify its ability scores when it uses its change shape ability? OK, good.
Now what happens when you take the Changeling Familiar feat and its "universal monster ability can function as alter self?" For convenience we'll say you are an elf. The SQ line would now look like:
SQ change shape (small elf of fixed appearance, alter self)
It is still the change shape ability. It is still subject to all the rules of the change shape ability. Including the fact that you don't alter your ability scores.
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Or if you need to come at it from a different angle, let's take the Rakshasa.
SQ change shape (any humanoid, alter self)
A Rakshasa's change shape ability functions as alter self. Does it modify ability scores when it uses change shape? No. Neither does a familiar whose change shape ability functions as alter self.
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Or if you need to come at it from a different angle, let's take the Rakshasa.
SQ change shape (any humanoid, alter self)A Rakshasa's change shape ability functions as alter self. Does it modify ability scores when it uses change shape? No. Neither does a familiar whose change shape ability functions as alter self.
That is what works best for me. I was mostly convinced before but an actual example is good. Dissapointing but good.