Anybody has the bestiary ready as in this regard AoN only features quite a strange sentence in the explanation of the monster stats block:
Damage amount and damage type, plus any additional effects (this entry is Effect if the Strike doesn’t deal damage).
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Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and deals piercing or slashing damage, the target must attempt a saving throw against the poison. On a failed Strike, the target is unaffected, but the poison remains on the weapon and you can try again. On a critical failure, or if the Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent but the target is unaffected.
While it might require some inference I think that poisons/afflictions tied to an injury/attack only occur if damage has taken place.
While it might require some inference I think that poisons/afflictions tied to an injury/attack only occur if damage has taken place.Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item. If that Strike is a success and deals piercing or slashing damage, the target must attempt a saving throw against the poison. On a failed Strike, the target is unaffected, but the poison remains on the weapon and you can try again. On a critical failure, or if the Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent but the target is unaffected.
...except that reading on the ghoul's paralysis, it specifically references if the attack hits - not if it deals damage.
Then defer to specific beats general as stated in the CRB in regards to monster attacks that say on hit instead of dealing damage.
Okay, sure... but while we have an indicator for injury poisons (doesn't apply unless your piercing/slashing breaks the skin) and ghoul paralysis (applies if you hit, regardless of whether or not you deal damage) we don't currently have anything indicating clearly for disease. What do we do there?
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Then defer to specific beats general as stated in the CRB in regards to monster attacks that say on hit instead of dealing damage.Okay, sure... but while we have an indicator for injury poisons (doesn't apply unless your piercing/slashing breaks the skin) and ghoul paralysis (applies if you hit, regardless of whether or not you deal damage) we don't currently have anything indicating clearly for disease. What do we do there?
If you want to stick to the ghoul the affliction seems like it's attached to the damage rider suggesting damage needs to occur. While paralysis is also attached to the rider suggesting the same it has a specific call out saying on hit which ghoul fever doesn't.
If you want to stick to the ghoul the affliction seems like it's attached to the damage rider suggesting damage needs to occur. While paralysis is also attached to the rider suggesting the same it has a specific call out saying on hit which ghoul fever doesn't.
See... that's the part I don't buy. Leaving aside house rules...
"Damage 1d6+1 piercing plus ghoul fever and paralysis"
You've got three things there. You have damage, you have ghoul fever, you have paralysis. The paralysis is explicitly called out as being on hit (not on damage) and the disease doesn't address the issue in any meaningful way. To my eyes, it's doing three independent things, and I'm not seeing why you'd think that any one would be dependent on any other. Where is that idea even coming from? Sure, there's stuff before the plus and stuff after the plus, but that's just because the first is damage numbers and the other two aren't. There's just no general rule there to begin with... so to my eyes, it defaults to "these are the three effects of hitting".
The only reason I see for Paralysis to specify the "hit by an attack" text is that, otherwise, the attack would need to damage for the rider effect to happen. Since Ghoul fever has no such specific text, then it does not apply just with a hit. Therefore, it requires damage to take effect.
"Paralysis (incapacitation, occult, necromancy) Any living, non-elf creature hit by a ghoul’s attack must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or become paralyzed. It can attempt a new save at the end of each of its turns, and the DC cumulatively decreases by 1 on each such save."
It's not nearly as specific-sounding as that logic really wants it to be.
Really, I can't see any reason to think that it *would* require damage other than the previous PF1 rule, and there's a lot of rules that didn't port over. I don't think it's an unreasonable house rule, and I wouldn't be shocked if there was an errata, but as far as I can see, there's nothing suggesting that it works that way now (for anything other than injury poisons)
Is there any explicit rule saying that a 'hit' is meaning only a successful attack roll? Or could a 'hit' mean a successful attack that also deals damage?
Is there any explicit rule saying that a 'hit' is meaning only a successful attack roll? Or could a 'hit' mean a successful attack that also deals damage?
There are a number of powers out there explicitly saying "if it hits and deals damage". Knockdown serves as an illustrative example. No reason to add the caveat if it was baked into the idea of "hit".