I'm building a monk who can scout ahead with stealth for a upcoming Agents of Edgewatch campaign.
As there is no range limit on darkvision in 2nd edition it seems much better than low light vision which only works in dim light.
What are your expirences with low light vision and dark vision?
Had a couple of low level outdoors encounters where it mattered in between our Dwarf Fighter and Half-Elf Barbarian, especially when our light sources where still insuficient and some key enemies (casters with dark vision) decided to stay at range.
Apart from that others are probably more qualified to fill you in on the "scouting ahead in PF2" part...
How good is darkvision in 2nd edition?
As good as it is in other editions. Darkvision hasn't changed much. How much of your campaign is happening in total darkness?
I'm building a monk who can scout ahead with stealth for a upcoming Agents of Edgewatch campaign.
Ah. I don't know how much of Agents of Edgewatch is in darkness.
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Ah. I don't know how much of Agents of Edgewatch is in darkness.
Well, its no secret that its an urban campaign set in a human city. So, all of your human enemies (and they make up a significant portion of your enemies) will require light.
And there are LOTS of places where scouting will be very dangerous, even for a monk with their ability to run away. Especially given PF2 rules for how encounters start
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Darkvision is very GM dependent. On virtual tabletop, if the GM activates the dynamic lighting, darkvision is quite important. I personally don't find that playing with the light level is anywhere close to fun, so I tend to completely handwave this part of the rules outside Darkness spells and situations where it is really central to the fight. I consider that the characters bring enough light to see what is happening.
As a side note:
- Darkness is very easy to disrupt in PF2. As soon as you reach level 9, it's no more of a problem as monsters rarely have Darkness heightened to a level high enough to beat the Light spells the PCs cast.
- There are quite common items giving Darkvision and a boost to Perception. They are expected items, as the bonus to Perception is featured in the Automatic Boost Progression rule.
- Even if you don't see you know where the enemy is. Hearing is now an Imprecise Sense allowing you to pinpoint everyone who's not using an action to Sneak. As a result, being blind is far less of an issue compared to PF1 where it was crippling. It still is annoying, though.
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Darkvision is extremely important to a scout, almost mandatory. Needing a light source means you pretty much can't scout the dark without it, and you never know when you'll need to go into a cave. Even in an urban campaign with largely human opposition. Say you need to break into a study to find some incriminating documents. A torch drastically increases the odds someone sees you through the window, or notices the flickering light under the door while patrolling the hallways. You can mitigate this with the right preparation, like a bullseye lantern, but darkvision is still the sure thing.
Plus, in a game where the opposition lacks darkvision, having it means you can leverage it against them. Blow out the torches with a kid blast or have someone use a darkness spell and you just got greater invisibility. Of course, this may or may not work well depending on the rest of your party, but it puts a tool in the box and that is never bad to have.
Edit: it sucks that this limits your ancestry choices a bit, but spells, alchemy, equipment, and class feats can all potentially get it for you.
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Darkvision is, as it has always been, over-rated by the majority of the player base.
It is useful, for sure, but not being able to discern color is a big deal a lot more often than most groups realize - often because the descriptions provided don't adjust to account for what not seeing color, so effectively darkvision is hand-waived to being without downsides.
And that carries over into the set-up of areas where a GM will often, out of habit of hand-waiving the importance/impact of color, have the 'bad guys' with darkvision deliberately hanging out in complete darkness instead of using light for their own convenience, which makes it harder for PCs to move around the adventure area undetected if they choose (or need) to have a light source to let them see what is going on.
Within APs, intelligent enemies will often use light sources so make it easier to read and what not. But plenty of monsters don't have the ability to make light anyway. Those creatures will usually spot a PC's torch just the same.
You don't really need darkvision if the party doesn't send an advanced scout, because all it takes is one party member who lacks darkvision for it to lose most of it's relevance to everyone. But given the Op wants to scout, I completely disagree it is overrated.
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I think it became slightly less important compared to PF1.
In PF1 the perception rules were kinda muddled, PF2 has a bit clearer rules for what you can still do when you can't see.
In addition, PF1 had quite a lot of monsters that could cast Darkness lots of times. These also got used a lot by "original" adventure writers. Not having darkvision could be a noob trap.
In PF2, there are fewer such monsters, and the Light cantrip is now quite credible at counterspelling Darkness effects.
PF1 being unable to see could also cause you to lose a lot of AC, it's a bit more constrained in PF2.
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Darkvision is still nice and very relevant to scout. I would say it went from "TOO necessary" to just very nice to have.
It depends on the GM and environment you'll be adventuring in. If you're scouting a dungeon where the monsters all have darkvision and don't use light sources, it's going to be pretty key as carrying a light source to scout will make you stand out like a sore thumb. If you're scouting against creatures that use light sources, then it isn't as bad.
It's not the end all be able, but it can make things a big rougher without darkvision. As a GM I don't punish players too much for not having darkvision. I figure characters that stealth have learned to operate with a light source against creatures with darkvision.
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Of course, like all things Internet, someone will post about how crucial or beneficial Darkvision was and have some amazing anecdote. But, IME, it's not been a factor and for good reason: to really pay-off Darkvision, the GM has to consistently penalize non-DV characters and IME that doesn't happen. It might happen once or twice in a campaign, but is that enough?
Is that my cue for an amusing anecdote? I have one.
I took over my elder daughter's character Muffin in a PF1 Serpent's Skull campaign when she moved to Seattle and I retired. That adventure path began with the PCs shipwrecked on an island and at higher levels they delved deep into the jungle, so the gnome barbarian Muffin had selected barbarian rage powers build around survival and exploration, such as Renewed Vigor and Raging Swimmer, rather than combat. Nevertheless, she had taken the first two rage powers in the Beast Totem line. When Muffin leveled up, I was strongly tempted by the third in the line, Greater Beast Totem which gives pounce and is considered one of the strongest rage powers. Yet I was amused by the wilderness survival theme on a barbarian, so I selected Night Vision which gives darkvision.
The very next game session, the party entered a tunnel guarded by a monster that could cast Darkness repeatedly and it did. Darkvision was more valuable than pounce would have been.
We were also often attacked at camp during the night in that campaign, but we had a campfire so low-light vision was enough.
Darkvision is very GM dependent. ...
It depends on the GM and environment you'll be adventuring in. ...
That is pretty much it, and I am the GM. My current party is all scouts: they prefer to scout out their enemy together and plan a ambush. That is a side effect of the 1st module, Trail of the Hunted, where they had to hide refugees in a forest. When they scout out a cave or in the middle of the night, I have to decide whether the cave has light sources or the night sky has a bright moon and stars. The umbral gnome and the tailed goblin in the party have darkvision and the other five have low-light vision, so moonlight is enough for everyone. We also temporarily had an interesting mixed case in the summoner playtest where the summoner had low-light vision, the eidolon had darkvision, and the pair had Share Senses.
In a cave I declared that the xulgath there maintained light sources despite their darkvision, just enough for good low-light vision, really for the convenience of the party. In a mine I declared that it was unilluminated, so the sorcerer in the party was careful about maintaining Dancing Lights for local illumination, though the umbral gnome rogue often sneaked ahead of the rest. On a night where a stranger was observing their camp, I let the sky be overcast and dark so that the umbral gnome and the tailed goblin had to spot the wary NPC. Plot determined the importance of darkvision.
If no-one in the party had darkvision, I would seldom make illumination a serious obstacle. If a few people had darkvision, I would sometimes let them show it off but in most encounters it wouldn't be important. If almost everyone had darkvision, I would make darkness routine and the people without it would seem handicapped.
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I've personally found low light vision to e pretty useless. While the difference between darkvision and not is night and day, I almost never remember to enforce concealment for low light unless I am using a VTT with Dynamic Lighting. I doubt most DMs are intentionally handwaving it but man is it easy to overlook.
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I had a player scout ahead. He came across some regular Orc thugs, so he was ever so certain he could sneak past them without trouble. When their eyes went right to him, he startled.
"How can they see me?!"
"How can you see them?"
"I have a li--. Ah, man. I run!"
With that as background I noticed how awesome it was that Barbarians could get Darkvision early. And Elves. And...well, most everybody. As important as it can be, PF2 made it widely available well before one could afford it in PF1 (et al). And as noted above, the default item for Perception ramps up to coming with Darkvision, so I'd think it becomes a bit ubiquitous.
Also, PF2 has made it more difficult to shut down enemies (mostly the PCs) w/ Darkness. Light auto-Heightens and can be spammed and the effects of Darkness are less severe, so only a few creatures themed around Darkness can pull it off, and even then mostly at lower levels. So getting it earlier can be worthwhile, though I wouldn't expect enemies in Agents to be pulling this tactic. If dungeon delving, I'd up the importance of Darkvision.
As also noted above, most enemies don't Heighten Darkness above 4th, so once you can cast Light at 5th, it's easy to dispel. But you do need a primary caster w/ Light, so there's that. That's something to remember more in PFS.
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It really depends on the table. In groups that don't worry too much about light it's basically a ribbon feature, while in some heavier dungeon crawls I've played where light matters a lot it's incredibly overbearing and only really balanced by how ubiquitous it is (but can feel really bad if you don't have access to it).
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Thank you for all your replies!
I noticed that a lot of the ancestries and versatile heritages options which have low light vision has a ancestry feat which grants darkvision. Most of them is 1st level only without retraining as an option.
But there are so many cool feats!!!
Do you think it is worthwhile to use your first ancestry feat on darkvision if you already has low light vision?
Do you think it is worthwhile to use your first ancestry feat on darkvision if you already has low light vision?
You can always take a Versatile Heritage, like Tiefling, so you can upgrade to darkvision AND get an ancestry feat. ;)
Do you think it is worthwhile to use your first ancestry feat on darkvision if you already has low light vision?You can always take a Versatile Heritage, like Tiefling, so you can upgrade to darkvision AND get an ancestry feat. ;)
The real bummer for tieflings is that Darkvision is a level 1 only feat but so are Lineages. Feelsbad that you can't ever have both.
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A very high percentage of monsters have darkvision in PF2.
So, nobody on the team having darkvision puts the party at a pretty big disadvantage. Having one PC with darkvision reduces that to a significant disadvantage, but the utility curve is pretty flat - there's not a huge difference between only one PC with darkvision and only one PC without darkvision. Having the entire party with darkvision negates the disadvantage, so you're on par with the monsters.
How to deal with the dark is something that every party should discuss at the beginning of an adventure (much like discussing healing). But how much effort to put into getting vision is going to be highly GM dependent.
I agree many GMs handwave darkness. I also agree it's not super fun. But light levels are part of the rules, so unless it's agreed up front that nobody cares, it's not fair to people who take feats or items to get darkvision, and overly generous to players who didn't even plan for their characters to have an open hand to carry a torch.
The real bummer for tieflings is that Darkvision is a level 1 only feat but so are Lineages. Feelsbad that you can't ever have both.Do you think it is worthwhile to use your first ancestry feat on darkvision if you already has low light vision?You can always take a Versatile Heritage, like Tiefling, so you can upgrade to darkvision AND get an ancestry feat. ;)
If your base ancestry started with low light, you get bumped up to darkvision for free without a feat so Lineages are good to go with it. If you REALLY want an ancestry without low light you still have the option to take the Feral Child background which is a secondary way for a Tiefling to have darkvision and a Lineage.
Yes its important especially for scouts. If you are the one person without it in the party then you will need a light source.
So easy to pick up in races, even humans can get it that it seems almost mandatory.
However:
You can get it from Darkvision Elixir from level 2 and Googles of Night from level 5. Past that point you will pick it up without having to pay character feats for it.
Sunrods are a 3gp level 1 consumable, and a useful backup till then.
So don't screw over your character concept to get it.
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Yes its important especially for scouts. If you are the one person without it in the party then you will need a light source.
So easy to pick up in races, even humans can get it that it seems almost mandatory.
However:
You can get it from Darkvision Elixir from level 2 and Googles of Night from level 5. Past that point you will pick it up without having to pay character feats for it.
Sunrods are a 3gp level 1 consumable, and a useful backup till then.
So don't screw over your character concept to get it.
[/QUOTE
On the other hand, if scouting is a big part of your character concept, then that may get screwed over if you don't have it.There are ways to get it short term at low levels, which are plenty fine if you just need to dose up for one encounter. The thing about scouting though is you never really know how often you'll want to do it, which makes it hard to gauge how often you'll need those tools.
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Darkvision as a defensive measure is pretty much hit or miss depending mostly on whether your GM uses light rules a lot. Even then, light spells are fairly effective in this edition.
Darkvision as an offensive tool might be more of a question. It depends a lot of how much of the bestiary has appropriate senses, and which part of the bestiary you are playing around with.
A darkvision party in a campaign set inside a single city? Then you are probably going to have a nice time messing around with human enemies and darkness spells. A darkvision in an undead campaign? Not so much.
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Darkvision as an offensive tool might be more of a question. It depends a lot of how much of the bestiary has appropriate senses, and which part of the bestiary you are playing around with.
I completely agree. In PF2, Darkvision seems to be more of an offensive than a defensive tool. It's so easy to get Darkvision that, besides very first levels, everyone will get it.
On the other hand, as everyone gets it quite quickly, it becomes a very nice offensive tool by the time you can cast Darkness as a low level spell. Humanoids and animals are common enemies. Even if the latter are more of a low level nuisance.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How good/important is low light vision compared to dark vision?
Terrible. It does nothing for scouting and your GM probably won't remember to enforce concealment anyway in combat. If they do, it is really easy to figure out ways around it-- light sources are many and varied.
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How good/important is low light vision compared to dark vision?Terrible. It does nothing for scouting and your GM probably won't remember to enforce concealment anyway in combat. If they do, it is really easy to figure out ways around it-- light sources are many and varied.
That was also my initial impression. It seems much weaker than Darkvision as you will need light sources in darkness. And Darkvision has no range limit now.
When I read on the three levels of light; Bright light, Dim light and Darkness. It sounds like you will not so often find your self in dim light. Areas of shadow and near weak light sources sounds more like small pocket area's where you can move away from or light up with a torch or spell.
How good/important is low light vision compared to dark vision?Terrible. It does nothing for scouting and your GM probably won't remember to enforce concealment anyway in combat. If they do, it is really easy to figure out ways around it-- light sources are many and varied.That was also my initial impression. It seems much weaker than Darkvision as you will need light sources in darkness. And Darkvision has no range limit now.
When I read on the three levels of light; Bright light, Dim light and Darkness. It sounds like you will not so often find your self in dim light. Areas of shadow and near weak light sources sounds more like small pocket area's where you can move away from or light up with a torch or spell.
Yeah. You can navigate in low light vision without a light source giving you away, even with normal vision. You do risk a mischance when the fight begins, but you can solve that with a couple actions to light a torch.
If you okay on a VTT,it becomes easier to track. Do note that it may become an issue if you run away from the torch bearer. But as a monk you should have a free hand for a torch yourself.
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How good/important is low light vision compared to dark vision?
Only to the extent that it makes it easier to get darkvision. there are a large number of options that improve vision, and they often let you skip straight to dark vision if you have low light vision already.
Low-light vision is folded into darkvision now, right?
I don't think so. It's usually redundant with darkvision, but there are creatures and PCs who have both, as well as some that have only darkvision or only low-light vision. Low-light vision is still color vision so there's still a theoretical benefit in seeing color farther than you otherwise would if that ever matters in your campaigns.
So plain Darkvision would be what, the colors in dim light are desaturated compared to bright light? Maybe it's a gradient of color-to-black-and-white the further away from the light source it is?
Just trying to visualize this minor difference between the two visions.
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That doesn't seem to check out with my brain. If Darkvision is this:
"You can see in darkness and dim light just as well as you can see in bright light, though your vision in darkness is in black and white."
Then how is there's an ability to tell between bright, dim, and darkness aside from the amount of desaturation occurring? The only reason dim light is more difficult to see in is due to not enough light reaching the receptors of my brain through my eyes to process the details of the area I'm in. If that difficulty is gone, then the distinction of bright, dim and darkness in terms of brightness (like, exposure in cameras) is effectively nonexistent. So the distinction must be in the saturation of each type of light, right? Bright light having all the color, dim light having less (as a mix of light and darkness would make sense), and darkness being completely black-and-white.
There's also this, under Special Senses on pg. 465:
"A creature with darkvision or greater darkvision can see perfectly well in areas of darkness and dim light, though such vision is in black and white only."
"Such vision" seems to include BOTH darkness AND dim light. So maybe dim light is also black-and-white? Or maybe that desaturation does come into play with dim light? Not sure, to be honest...
If desaturation were intended to come into the mix, it'd be a word used in the description of the vision. It's not. It's just a simple bright light = good vision in color; dim light or darkness = good vision in black and white.
Right, you did say that:
Darkvision lets you see in not bright light conditions as if they were bright light conditions, but you can't discern color.
...But wait a minute, you also said:
Darkvision: everything fine except for not discerning color. 20 feet fine in color, 20 feet past that dimly with color, and everything past that without color with a torch.
Given it's 4 AM and my brain is on the fritz from other things, this whole thing just ended up reading very confusingly. But getting the gist now that "for Darkvision, dim light is as clear as bright light, but is in black-and-white" is a pretty clear, easy and simple conclusion to come to.
You're coming at the rules as if they are some kind of physics or are emulating real-world physics in some way, and they aren't.
If desaturation were intended to come into the mix, it'd be a word used in the description of the vision. It's not. It's just a simple bright light = good vision in color; dim light or darkness = good vision in black and white.
Basically, leave science out of it because the game is A) a game, not a science experiment, and B) not written by scientists so it's not reasonable to expect it to hold up to science-y treatment.
I agree with thenobledrake. Darkvision is not science. I have seen older D&D editions with infrared vision, but seriously roleplaying infrared vision would be difficult, "You can see the rats in the total darkness by their body heat, but the zombies are room temperature and you cannot see them."
Instead, darkvision copies science only for a little flavor. Due to the rod and cones structure in the human eye (How does night vision work?) we lose our color vision in dim light. Thus, we associate seeing in darkness with seeing in black and white.
When I first read about unlimited-range darkvision in PF2, I wondered about giving it a handicap to explain why creatures with darkvision would provide light in their lairs. The limited range disadvantage worked in PF2, they needed light to see far. Would the PF2 darkvision creatures want to see in color? No, because darkvision has no mechanical penalty, so seeing in color was no sigificant advantage. I would have had a hard time explaining why the creatures with darkvision wanted to also use normal vision.
Instead, the darkvision xulgath in their caves had light because the previous non-xulgath residents had put some permanent magical lights in the caves. The darkvision hobgoblins attacked at dusk rather than full night because they expected to attack humans impaired by dim light, rather than the low-light-vision PCs in my campaign, who could see fine in dim light. The darkkvision quarrygeists in the dark mine did not provide light, because the party having to provide their own light added to the spooky atmosphere of that encounter.
I had wondered whether creatures with darkvision would notice a light source. Light sources stand out to normal vision in dim light and darkness, but I have to look directly at the light bulb to tell whether a flashlight is on in bright light. If a room always seems bright to a creature with darkvision, then would a torch be noticeable due to its brightness? However, with darkvision limited to black and white, the color of regular light would stand out even if its brightness didn't.
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This thread got me interested in options for acquiring darkvision and greater darkvision, so I compiled a list.
This thread got me interested in options for acquiring darkvision and greater darkvision, so I complied a list.
Nice list!!!
You can add
Gloomseer 1 -> Darkseer 5
For Nidalese ethnicity humans
Thanks! I had Darkseer, but didn't notice that Gloomseer was a prerequisite.
Thanks! I had Darkseer, but didn't notice that Gloomseer was a prerequisite.This thread got me interested in options for acquiring darkvision and greater darkvision, so I complied a list.
Nice list!!!
You can add
Gloomseer 1 -> Darkseer 5
For Nidalese ethnicity humans
Excellent. Though I'd prefer the 3 greater darkvision to be also listed separately as they are quite special.
Missing Eye of the Arclords
Some suggestions for expansion though most of these are imprecise
Undead Sense
Arcane Sense maybe that is not real. But this is.
Illusion Sense
Alignment Sense
LifeSense
Soul Sight
Life Sense
Sense Ki
Echolocation
Greater Animal Senses with the right animal....
Animal Senses
Aerial Form
Mummified Bat
plus these large lists.
Tremorsense
Scent
Would the PF2 darkvision creatures want to see in color?Yes, because yellow mold and brown mold both exist in the world they live in, alongside numerous colors of mold that are not nearly so dangerous to be near.
Spotting the difference at a distance thanks to seeing in color is a massive advantage (and not just limited to this narrow case, as numerous things are more readily determined by color than by other means).
When it comes to natural terrain, that's a good point: color is one of the main tools for differentiating the dangerous from the benign.
"Why do the creatures in the Underdark carry light sources?""Because of mold, fungi, strange species, etc." That seems a legitimate answer, especially given how bizarre some of the effects can be.
Even old school underground civilizations usually had ambient light (dim light in PF2) for daily life. Gotta know when it's best to harvest that fungi forest or who knows what else might be required or if they just like seeing better/with color. How much investment they'd put into light vs. the gains would be another question, as would how they'd respond in a martial lockdown if they knew the intruders were from the surface, and how many of the residents have Light Blindness. For the last they may want to acclimate before combat starts if they assume the enemy will illuminate the battlefield.
But yeah, unless the enemy makes a point of using Darkness tactically, I don't think there's much point to worry about this, though that's a frequent "if" in some campaigns.
"Why do the creatures in the Underdark carry light sources?"
"Because of mold, fungi, strange species, etc." That seems a legitimate answer, especially given how bizarre some of the effects can be.Even old school underground civilizations usually had ambient light (dim light in PF2) for daily life. Gotta know when it's best to harvest that fungi forest or who knows what else might be required or if they just like seeing better/with color. How much investment they'd put into light vs. the gains would be another question, as would how they'd respond in a martial lockdown if they knew the intruders were from the surface, and how many of the residents have Light Blindness. For the last they may want to acclimate before combat starts if they assume the enemy will illuminate the battlefield.
AoA - Kovlar:
The lack of sunlight can be disconcerting for visitors accustomed to the surface, in part because of the absence of a cycle of day and night. To make matters more confounding for outsiders, Kovlar’s people adhere to the tradition of forge-days common among many grondaksen (the underground dwarves’ own name for their people). Forge-days are 32 hours long, with 12 hours for sleeping followed by 20 hours of work and leisure. During the sleeping hours, Kovlar’s guards quench fire-based lanterns, making the streets somewhat darker.
Basically underground cultures use light for some specialized works where's the color perception is necessary. But outside this the underground dark-vision races like dwarfs don't need or use lights at all except to make things more comfortable to surface races but even so the ilumination usually is dimly.
This book is a good example of an entire adventure in underground where's the light sources are sparse and dark-vision could be defensively used to avoid attract dangerous creatures.
Plus the PCs might get in trouble with the guards for using light at particular times. Nice.
Would the PF2 darkvision creatures want to see in color?Yes, because yellow mold and brown mold both exist in the world they live in, alongside numerous colors of mold that are not nearly so dangerous to be near.
Spotting the difference at a distance thanks to seeing in color is a massive advantage (and not just limited to this narrow case, as numerous things are more readily determined by color than by other means).
Color can be useful for a large number of signals, such as uniform color to indicate allies or enemies, signs, and flags.
Heck, I could easily see elves using color coded signs on a moonlit night in order to take advantage of an orc invasion.
But this more of an RP and exploration issue rather than an issue that would come up in the core combat mechanics.
When it comes to natural terrain, that's a good point: color is one of the main tools for differentiating the dangerous from the benign.
"Why do the creatures in the Underdark carry light sources?"
"Because of mold, fungi, strange species, etc." That seems a legitimate answer, especially given how bizarre some of the effects can be.Even old school underground civilizations usually had ambient light (dim light in PF2) for daily life. Gotta know when it's best to harvest that fungi forest or who knows what else might be required or if they just like seeing better/with color. How much investment they'd put into light vs. the gains would be another question, as would how they'd respond in a martial lockdown if they knew the intruders were from the surface, and how many of the residents have Light Blindness. For the last they may want to acclimate before combat starts if they assume the enemy will illuminate the battlefield.
A lot of variations of drow across the systems give them dancing light, and maybe faerie fire. Even when the latter isn't such a huge general tactical advantage like in 5e... these are still ways to tell your allies "shoot here". And they work at a distance.
Heck, having allies with torches can be a massive advantage in a darkvision on dark vision battle. Most darkvision has a limited range, and it is very far from comfortable sniping ranges. But when the enemy is near a torch, anybody can see and shoot them freely. So even when your front line loses the advantage of stealth, it gives that advantage back to the ranged units.