what do fights look like at your table at APL 6?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Here's a fight I just designed for a dungeon crawl campaign:

CR 7/A Creature and their Spider:

PCs are at the far end of a long, wide processional hallway. The processional is 10' wide and approximately 70' long with a vaulted ceiling, 15' high at the base and 20' up at the apex of the vault.

The length of the processional hallway is littered with spider's webbing obscuring most of the detail in the architecture. Beyond the tunnel the PCs know (from past experience) the chamber beyond opens into a large, vacuous space divided into smaller niches and antechambers by half walls and a gallery above.

1. Monsters: Advanced Nightmare Ettercap, Ogre Spider
2. Traps: x2 CR 2 Javelin traps

Before combat: the javelin traps are set to fire on anything that disturbs the webbing at points along the tunnel; the Ogre Spider rests just inside the entry to the far chamber, sensing the tension on its web; the nightmare ettercap is tinkering with another javelin trap inside the chamber, keeping an eye on their pet spider

During combat: the ogre spider presses forward into the tunnel, forcing melee combat in this tight space, while the ettercap throws poisoned javelins, uses Suggestion or it's Web ability from range behind the creature

Ending combat: if the ogre spider appears badly injured to its master (half HP or less) the ettercap uses it's Shadow Walk ability for them both to escape

Treasure: in the ettercap's "workshop" inside the next chamber the PCs can find Masterwork Trapsmith's tools, a small locked (Good lock/DC 30) chest that contains 1000 GP in mixed coins, a small sack with 8 polished pieces of sardonyx (50 GP ea) and an ornate (non-magical) drinking horn ringed in bronze and pewter, the bands studded with garnet chips in a draconic motif (100 GP), x2 potions: Cure Light Wounds, Long Arm, and finally a well-made, double-headed Warhammer with runic script winding over the iron surface; the haft is wrapped in fine leather (hippogriff hide) and shot through with silver-iron cord (+1 Warhammer)

Note: if the ettercap is slain in battle PCs will find an iron key that fits the lock on the chest along with an extra 3 javelins in a fine leather (Masterwork quality hippogriff hide) quiver (only noted as Masterwork in case someone wants to make it into a magic item)

So what I'm looking for is examples of combats you've designed or run for APL 6 parties. I'm wanting to compare and contrast my own encounter design with others' to once again mine some inspiration and gauge the difficulty level of my own designs. Thanks in advance to any and all who participate.

[Ryze Kuja]

That's a CR7 encounter already before the Advancement on the Nightmare Ettercap, so I'd be careful about advancing that monster. Looks like a pretty cool encounter though ;)

What kind of Poison are you going to dip the javelins in?

[VoodistMonk]

An open, level field of soggy grass. You sink up to your ankles in the moist sod with each step...

Option A: ... but it does not slow your movement.

Option B: ... and you find yourselves in difficult terrain.

DC 34 Perception to avoid a surprise round.

Option A: 1x Aerial Leech Swarm (CR5)

Option B: 2x Aerial Leech Swarm (CR7)

..............................

Aerial Leech Swarm
CR 5 (w/ template)

XP 1,600 (w/ template)

N Diminutive vermin ( aquatic, swarm, air)
Init +4; Senses blindsight 30 ft.; darkvision 60'
Perception +0

DEFENSE

AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14 (+4 Dex, +4 size)
hp 39 (6d8+12)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
DR 3/-
Resist electricity 15
Immune mind-affecting effects, swarm traits, weapon damage
Weaknesses susceptible to salt (see giant leech)

OFFENSE

Speed 5 ft., swim 30 ft., fly 30' (perfect)
Melee swarm (2d6 plus poison)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks blood drain, distraction (DC 15)

STATISTICS

Str 1, Dex 18, Con 15, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +4; CMB —; CMD —
Skills Stealth +16 (+24 in swamps), Swim +12; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in swamps, uses Dexterity to modify Swim checks

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Blood Drain (Ex)

Any living creature that begins its turn with a leech swarm in its space is drained of its blood and takes 1d3 points of Str and Con damage.

Poison (Ex)

Swarm—injury; save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; effect 1d4 Dexterity drain; cure 1 save.

ECOLOGY

Environment temperate or warm marshes
Organization solitary, pair, or infestation (3–6 swarms)
Treasure none

This horrifying cloud of ravenous, blood-draining parasites eschews the stealth of a lone leech’s methods in favor of swift and merciless feeding.

Aerial Creature
This template can be applied only to a non-outsider with none of the subtypes that follow: air, cold, earth, fire, or water. An aerial creature’s CR increases by 1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.

Rebuild Rules

• Type The creature gains the air subtype.

• Senses The creature gains darkvision 60 ft.

• Defensive Abilities The creature gains DR and resistance to electricity as noted on the table below (DR 3/-, electricity resistance 15)

• Speed The creature gains a fly speed equal to its highest speed with perfect maneuverability (maximum fly speed of 10 feet per HD)

[VoodistMonk]

About 10 Kobolds, 3 decent traps, and some absolute nightmarish terrain.

Or, 3-4 giant termites, 10 Mites, favorable terrain (for the Mites), and maybe a swarm of bees or some other bug-ish BS.

Or, a singular level 5 Nagaji Mesmerist that knows Color Spray. Lol.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

That's a CR7 encounter already before the Advancement on the Nightmare Ettercap, so I'd be careful about advancing that monster. Looks like a pretty cool encounter though ;)

What kind of Poison are you going to dip the javelins in?

I thought a Nightmare Ettercap is CR 4; Advanced makes it CR 5, and x2 CR 5 monsters (Ogre Spider is CR 5) = CR 7? Advanced Nightmare Ettercap = 1,600 XP; Ogre Spider = 1,600 XP; a CR 7 encounter is worth 3,200 XP. Please help me figure out what I've got wrong?

Also, the javelins are just going to have the ettercap's poison on them: save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 2 consecutive saves. The javelins in the traps are just going to be normal, not poisoned.

[VoodistMonk]

3-5 NPC's... each being a well put together Adept 4/Warrior 4... at least one is an archer, and at least one has a reach weapon.

They play like Magi/Warpriests, each should probably have at least a +2 Wisdom modifier and Spell Focus Evocation to make having/casting spells possibly be worth it.

But, honestly, at low to mid levels, terrain is so fun to use against the party... it doesn't even matter what they are fighting, if you do it right... any later in levels, though, and they all are flying and/or can ignore difficult terrain so easily it stops being as useful/fun of a tool.

[Ryze Kuja]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

That's a CR7 encounter already before the Advancement on the Nightmare Ettercap, so I'd be careful about advancing that monster. Looks like a pretty cool encounter though ;)

What kind of Poison are you going to dip the javelins in?

I thought a Nightmare Ettercap is CR 4; Advanced makes it CR 5, and x2 CR 5 monsters (Ogre Spider is CR 5) = CR 7? Advanced Nightmare Ettercap = 1,600 XP; Ogre Spider = 1,600 XP; a CR 7 encounter is worth 3,200 XP. Please help me figure out what I've got wrong?

Also, the javelins are just going to have the ettercap's poison on them: save Fort DC 15; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 1d2 Dex; cure 2 consecutive saves. The javelins in the traps are just going to be normal, not poisoned.

I'm assuming that you'll be using the x2 CR2 Traps during combat. Unadvanced NM Ettercap is CR4, Ogre Spider is CR5, x2 CR2 Traps, and this all = CR7. Advancing the NM Ettercap to CR5 makes this a CR8 encounter. This still isn't a problem for an APL6 party to take on.

If the traps are meant to go off before or after combat, then you wouldn't include it; the two CR5 creatures would = CR7 encounter, and then the x2 CR2 Traps would their own separate CR4 encounter.

[VoodistMonk]

8x Pugwampi
2x Rageborn Gnolls
1x Giant Demon Gnoll
AND...
1x CR3 trap, OR
2x CR2 traps

Make sure the Pugwampi cover the entire battlefield, and especially the trap(s), with their Unluck Aura... and can cover the Gnolls with their [the Pugwampi's] shortbows.

Use terrain and natural darkness to the disadvantage of the party.

[Mark Hoover 330]

RK: if I'm being honest, that's one of the reasons I personally feel like I stink at designing combats. I never know WHERE to put things like CR 2 Javelin Traps - before combat, in the midst of it, or what.

Like, I go into an encounter design sesh thinking "I want a combat here. Something avg challenge, about CR 6 or 7." Then I toss in some monsters that'd be appropriate, b/c monsters I feel like I know how to use pretty well.

Inevitably though, in order to have ANY chance of an individual monster actually being any kind of threat to the characters they're usually already CR 5-6 each. But then I'm like "Cool; I've got a dungeon room, some neutral terrain features that don't inherently benefit either side, and some appropriate monsters. Yawn."

Then, when I try and spice it up with a hazard or trap or whatever, again to make that element at all threatening to the PCs I have to either add a few small ones or one big one... and thus end up with some fight that's much tougher than I wanted.

So... do I reduce the monsters, remove the trap/hazard, nerf something to the point where it's pointless to have anyway, or what?

Alternately if I leave the fight more of a challenge, like having the Javelin Traps fire into the battle, shouldn't I ALSO be calculating treasure for the PCs overcoming a CR 8 fight instead of CR 7? That gets into the whole WBL thing, and I also hand out XP b/c my players asked for that so then I'm handing out extra XP too...

This is why, from time to time, my frayed insecurities get the better of me and I reach out for examples of how folks better at this than I am design THEIR encounters.

Most of my fights lately, per feedback from my OWN players, are either too boring or so difficult that they're p'ssd off. For whatever reason its gotten harder, not easier, for me to find the middle ground between the 2.

[VoodistMonk]

I think you are overthinking it.

Should you adjust treasure because you increased the CR with some spear traps? Yes, make sure you include any unbroken spears in the loot. Lol.

But other than that, no. Everything is just a guideline, don't get caught up trying to make things match exactly.

If the party is APL 6, they get APL 6 loot, even if I throw a APL+6 encounter at them... why? Because they don't need CR12 loot right meow. They would enjoy it, I'm sure, but I don't want them to have it yet... so screw them, they get appropriate WBL loot, and a pat on the back for beating a difficult encounter.

The party is not aware of what you do behind the scenes preparing for the encounter... who gives a $#!+ what the numbers end up being as long as the encounter is fun? Don't worry it matching some chart or table or other guideline metric. Give them loot that makes sense and you feel appropriate for the encounter... you control these things, not a stupid book.

Why would you ever unbalance your own game just to try follow a stupid chart?

So, no, you do not HAVE TO increase loot just because you increase CR. You can give them exactly what you want them to have, whenever you see fit. The tables and charts are there for easy reference, not to add confusion.

[Ryze Kuja]

@MarkHoover

I primarily use these two resources for encounter designing.

CR Calculator

Combat Manager

Combat Manager is great because I can advance monsters and add templates super quick and easy. After I advance them and add templates, the original CR will have changed, so then I input how many monsters of each CR I have chosen into the CR Calc to make sure I'm not going to steamroll the PC's. Using these two resources, I can design an encounter even mid-sesh, and it only takes about 2-3 minutes max. If I want to put in a generic trap, then I just check the d20pfsrd traps, and plug that into the CR calc too.

You're not supposed to add Trap CR's to an encounter unless it's going to actually be used in that combat. If the trap is meant to go off before or after combat, then it's its own separate encounter.

Personally, I like to design my own elaborate traps, and I make them equivalent to boss fights. There are some times that I get writer's block and that's why I like using Grimtooth's Traps for inspiration.

Grimtooth's Traps <--- best trap guide ever

Also, everyone loves a good ol'fashioned Indiana Jones chase scene. Sometimes I'll spice up "Kill BBEG, get McGuffin"-style encounters with a rogue-ish type or two who come in and steal the mcguffin mid-fight and bolt. The rogue(s) will usually steal a horse or carriage to get away, and the party and BBEG will also have to mount up, and the chase scene begins!

Mexican Standoff style encounters are a fun way to spice things up too, where you have 3+ interested parties all going after something or trying to get a mcguffin or kill the BBEG but don't get along with the PC party. I.E. PC party vs. NPC party vs. 2nd NPC party.