Oh fun...
Ok, is it the PC's turn in initiative order? If so, I would allow the PC to complete his turn.
If it is some other situation, I may not be understanding how enemies are raining down mid-swing on a PC's turn... and if it is not the PC's turn in initiative order, I don't know how they are using Cleave.
I have stopped an enemy's Cleave attempt with the OP&R Deed, but that is not really the same thing. Can you break down how these enemies are raining down "with surprise" during the PC's turn/Cleave attempt?
It sounds like the GM made a mistake, probably with the timing of placing enemies on the board, or was trying to add backup to an encounter that turned out to be too easy for the party. Either way, it doesn't matter if new enemies show up mid-combat... they do not get a surprise round. They cound possibly sneak and gain the advantages associated with attacking a flat-footed oppinent, but they do not get free attacks mid-turn simply for dropping out of the trees or rafters.
Welcome to the party... if they dropped down in the threatened area of the PC Cleave'ing, I would let the PC Cleave the two retards that dropped down next to the PC.
Interesting... readied actions have a way of throwing a spanner in the works.
If the trigger was based on the PC entering a square, the PC should have never been allowed to swing at all...
GM: "As you move up to attack the battle mage with the scar over his eye, two shadowy figures drop down from the rafters above before you can attack, and..."
Once the player starts to swing, you gotta let them swing.
You wouldn't let a 12th level Wizard shoot ONE ray of their Scortching Ray spell, then be stopped by the Fighter's readied action. Lol. That is not how any of this works unless the trigger involved someone being hit by the Barbarian... which seems like a stupid trigger. Lol.
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Oh fun...
That made ma laugh.
So I think VoodistMonk is right, and that the readied actions should have triggered before the Barbarian got their first attack, bowever let's assume for whatever reason that's not the case and a readied action interrupted your cleave .
The enemies tripped the barbarian, but didn't move them out of their square, so the Barbarian is mid-swing and knocked prone. Their Cleave is still going, so they should still get the attack, but now they're at -4 to hit from being Prone.
Readied actions DO interrupt basically everything - so going between 2 attacks is perfectly doable - but the problem here is that your enemies didn't actually impose any conditions that stop the Barbarian from attacking. If they'd Stunned/Dazed/Disarmed/Bull-Rushed/etc the Barbarian then you'd be out of luck, but Tripped just isn't that bad a condition.
In terms of bringing this to the GM, I assume by now you've all moved on, so don't try to ret-con anything. This is simply about clarifying the rules for future encounters.
When you say held action are you talking about a delayed action or a readied action? There is a world of difference between them. With a delay you reduce your initiative to whatever initiative count you decided on, but once someone has started an action that count has already occurred so you cannot interrupt that action. With a readied action you declare an action and a trigger, when the trigger occurs you take your declared action. In a readied action your action takes place just before the trigger occurs.
If the hidden enemies had a readied action they should have interrupted the first attack. If they were using a delayed action then the barbarian should have completed all the attacks before they got a trip attempt.
Cleave is a single standard action so once it starts that is it.
Yeah, the whole part of entering the combat after its running with surprise means their "entry actions" are basically just their standard action readied in whatever round they take it. (It's actually them just being in initiative normally, undiscovered, and readying/delaying round over round and a readied action is the only way to "enter" in someone else's turn.) And since it would have to be readied, they can chose to interrupt whenever they wish.
But also still the trip doesn't do anything but provide a pretty significant debuff, but a debuff doesn't negate anything.
The only way that this could've been accomplished is through Readied Actions from the Ambushers to "break stealth, jump down, and attack the first enemy that moves into this square". It wouldn't be a Delayed action.
I think that's a lot to fit into one Readied Action, but in any case let's assume that they can; their Readied Action interrupts the Barbarian's turn as soon as the triggering event "enemy moves into this square" occurs.
So it should've gone like this:
(Example1)
Ambushers consume a Standard Action to perform a Readied Action.
Barb moves and satisfies the condition for the Ambushers' Readied Actions.
Barb's turn is interrupted, and the two Ambushers "break stealth, jump down, and attack"
One of the Ambushers is successful, and trips the Barbarian.
Barb's turn continues, and has a Standard and Swift Action left.
In this example, their whip attack should have happened BEFORE the Cleave, not during.
Alternatively, if the Readied Action from the Ambushers was to "break stealth, jump down, and attack the first enemy that attacks our buddy below us", then it should've gone like this:
(Example2)
Ambushers consume a Standard Action to perform a Readied Action.
Barb moves and Cleaves the buddy, and this satisfies the condition for the Ambushers' Readied Actions.
Barb's turn is interupted, and the two Ambushers "break stealth, jump down, and attack"
One of the Ambushers is successful, and trips the Barbarian.
Barb's turn continues, and has a Swift Action left.
So in this example, their whip attack should have happened AFTER the Cleave, not during.
Personally, I would allow a charge as part of a character breaking their stealth, as the readied action is the equivalent of their surprise round. They would still only move regular speed, but that should be enough, given whips, and they can trip as the charge attack.
I know in 3E you could ready a charge, but 3.5 you could only ready a Standard, Move, or Free Action. And then Pathfinder added Swift Action to that list.
I think the only way you can finagle the rules to allow this would be to allow a Charge as a Standard Action, which allows you to move x1 your move and make an attack.
The only way that this could've been accomplished is through Readied Actions from the Ambushers to "break stealth, jump down, and attack the first enemy that moves into this square".
I think that's a lot to fit into one Readied Action...
I don't think it is a lot for a readied action:
1) Break stealth isn't any kind of an action. It is just something that happens based on something else you do. eg, if I'm stealthed and I make any kind of attack, I've just broken stealth, but the only action I took was attack. Likewise if I'm stealthed and move (without making another stealth roll) - same effect.
2) Dropping down - depends on where the readying character is in relation to the hole in the ceiling/gap in the tree branches, etc.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
A 5' step is allowed, if that puts you over a hole, you naturally fall - of course if it is a long enough fall you take damage, and end up prone.
3) The only action being taken by the ready then is an action to attack.
The only way that this could've been accomplished is through Readied Actions from the Ambushers to "break stealth, jump down, and attack the first enemy that moves into this square".
I think that's a lot to fit into one Readied Action...
I don't think it is a lot for a readied action:
1) Break stealth isn't any kind of an action. It is just something that happens based on something else you do. eg, if I'm stealthed and I make any kind of attack, I've just broken stealth, but the only action I took was attack. Likewise if I'm stealthed and move (without making another stealth roll) - same effect.
2) Dropping down - depends on where the readying character is in relation to the hole in the ceiling/gap in the tree branches, etc.
I'm not counting Breaking Stealth as an action, but I am considering "Dropping Down" to be a Move Action. So, Move Action + Standard Action to attack = too much for a Readied Action.
If you're going to have a Readied Action that is a Move Action to drop down and a Standard Action to attack, I might allow it if you had Rhino Charge, or something similar where you're proficient at Move+Attack as a Standard Action, but this wouldn't be RAW either. Technically Rhino Charge needs to be performed under the strict conditions of "Charge", i.e. straight path to enemy, etc.. Death From Above might work though; it's for flying charges or charging from higher ground to lower ground, but we'd have to consult Buzz Lightyear for advice on this "I wasn't falling with style, I was flying."
I'm not counting Breaking Stealth as an action, but I am considering "Dropping Down" to be a Move Action. So, Move Action + Standard Action to attack = too much for a Readied Action.
Well you did list breaking stealth as one of the things you are doing :).
If you're going to have a Readied Action that is a Move Action to drop down and a Standard Action to attack, I might allow it if you had Rhino Charge, or something similar where you're proficient at Move+Attack as a Standard Action, but this wouldn't be RAW either. Technically Rhino Charge needs to be performed under the strict conditions of "Charge", i.e. straight path to enemy, etc.. Death From Above might work though; it's for flying charges or charging from higher ground to lower ground, but we'd have to consult Buzz Lightyear for advice on this "I wasn't falling with style, I was flying."
I agree if it is a move action to get into a position to drop down next to the enemy you want to attack - that is beyond what you can do in a readied action. But if you are standing next to the hole, then taking a 5' step and falling x number of feet (less than 500), then attacking, requires only a 5' step and a (readied) standard action to attack. eg, Falling doesn't require an action.
Again, for the sake of creatures that for all intents and purposes are not in initiative, I would allow a partial charge as part of someone entering combat mid-initiative from surprise, because that is the equivalent of them only having that one standard action readied, if it were in a real surprise round.
But, yes, dropping down can be as simple as a 5ft step off a ledge and therefore a free action. It does require you to be more or less directly overtop of someone, but along a city alleyway, tree-canopied road, or even complex cavern system, that's not too improbable.
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Well you did list breaking stealth as one of the things you are doing :).
I'm not counting Breaking Stealth as an action, but I am considering "Dropping Down" to be a Move Action. So, Move Action + Standard Action to attack = too much for a Readied Action.
I was being specific about what the creature was going to do.
I agree if it is a move action to get into a position to drop down next to the enemy you want to attack - that is beyond what you can do in a readied action. But if you are standing next to the hole, then taking a 5' step and falling x number of feet (less than 500), then attacking, requires only a 5' step and a (readied) standard action to attack. eg, Falling doesn't require an action.
If you're going to have a Readied Action that is a Move Action to drop down and a Standard Action to attack, I might allow it if you had Rhino Charge, or something similar where you're proficient at Move+Attack as a Standard Action, but this wouldn't be RAW either. Technically Rhino Charge needs to be performed under the strict conditions of "Charge", i.e. straight path to enemy, etc.. Death From Above might work though; it's for flying charges or charging from higher ground to lower ground, but we'd have to consult Buzz Lightyear for advice on this "I wasn't falling with style, I was flying."
You can only 5ft step when you don't move any other distance in the round, so if your 5ft step would cause you to travel 20-30ft down, then your DM is going to kibosh that real quick.
If you allow players to take 5ft steps that allow additional travel as a result of taking the 5ft step, then you open the door for abuse.
You can only 5ft step when you don't move any other distance in the round, so if your 5ft step would cause you to travel 20-30ft down, then your DM is going to kibosh that real quick.If you allow players to take 5ft steps that allow additional travel as a result of taking the 5ft step, then you open the door for abuse.
That rule is in reference to you taking an action to move. eg, move action to move, standard to move, quick runners shirt to move, etc.
Seveal examples:
If on my turn someone with a readied action bull rushes me, I can still take a 5' step. If I fall due to gravity, I can still 5' step.
If on my previous turn I fell 500', then on this turn I fall another ~200', hit the ground, take damage, survive. I can stand up from prone (move action), attack (standard action), and also take a 5' step.
Falling is a kind of movement. It may not require specific locomotion or physical effort on your part, but it is voluntary and on your turn (as opposed to, say, something else forcing you to move - though not sure how that would happen on your turn aside from frighten/panic and even then that's still your movement, you're just compelled - not forced - to do it).Think of it another way.
I have a character that has the Angel Wings feat. I start off 510 feet up in the air. I use a swift action to grant my weapon reach (or maybe I just have a reach weapon).
I drop 500 feet. I haven't "moved" yet, and making a fly check on its own doesn't use an action, so I get an attack, then make the DC 20 check (at 12th level Swashbuckler, my fly is is already higher than 20) and fly straight back up. I'm 20 feet above my target, and next round I get a haste cast on me. I drop, full round attack, then fly 50 feet up. Rinse, repeat. Take vital strike, because I feel like doing more damage.
AoO? Not with my parry. Good freaking luck.
Hope you're built to be really good with ranged attacks. Those levels of Virtuous Bravo and ring of evasion, plus Cut and Smash from the air - any outdoor encounter, I'm practically invincible.
Or perhaps just stop 10 feet above my target. Full round attack despite starting the round nearly two football fields above my target.
All because falling is a free action.
Hypothetical edge cases do not define the rules. I'd be far less concerned about dealing with your build then dealing with a flying ranger with the archery feat line at 12th level. eg, 1 vital strike attack per round vs 3 (minimum) from the archer. Or 4 with rapid shot, and essentially five with many shot. And if said ranger took your race as their favored class bonus at 1st, they could be at +6 against you too.
Nevermind dealing with the flying wizard/sorcerer running greater invisibility while they deal out death. Now you need a see invis and ranged weapon (and if you have see invis they are probably adding mirror image to their spells being cast).
On top of that, your flying swashbuckler would actually be burning 2 panache points per turn just to attempt to parry. 1 when you enter the creatures area and it uses its readied action to attack. And a 2nd when you leave its space and provoke an AoO. So the tactic might be good once, after that your burning a lot of limited resources to maintain it.
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Yeah, a 5ft step is technically a "Miscellaneous Action" that can be taken whenever you do not move any other distance in the round. And you may take a 5ft step as a part of a Readied Action, but if you're going to use that 5ft step to travel 30ft up, down, or wherever, then that's abuse.
If you take a 5ft step and then the DM moves you with environmental hazards or mooks shoving you around, then that's different.
...but if you're going to use that 5ft step to travel 30ft up, down, or wherever, then that's abuse.
That is subjective. (And likely results in you being prone - have fun with that melee attack at -4 to hit).
That is subjective. (And likely results in you being prone - have fun with that melee attack at -4 to hit).
You can 5ft step into a Reverse Gravity spell and then move up to 500ft in that same round (you get additional points for abusing this with multiple Feather Fall spells and Pearls of Power, or a Ring of Feather Fall, and then keep 5ft stepping in and out every round), you can full attack and then 5ft step into a Wind Wall (small creatures get blown away), you can 5ft step into a river and float away from danger.
I bet there are at least 100 ways to abuse this.
AonPRD:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.They still "move" the extra distance. It doesn't say "but only if you don't otherwise spend any movement" but rather "but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance".
The problem with this interpretation is that it's even more abusable and inconsistent, eg: Ready an action to 5-foot step into an area of Reverse Gravity and ignore the Reverse Gravity ... not to mention how it would interact with seafaring combat.
Any rules about movement allowed during an action are referring to active movement, not forced or passive movement by enemies, spells or gravity .
That is subjective. (And likely results in you being prone - have fun with that melee attack at -4 to hit).
You can 5ft step into a Reverse Gravity spell and then move up to 500ft in that same round (you get additional points for abusing this with multiple Feather Fall spells and Pearls of Power, or a Ring of Feather Fall, and then keep 5ft stepping in and out every round), you can full attack and then 5ft step into a Wind Wall (small creatures get blown away), you can 5ft step into a river and float away from danger.
I bet there are at least 100 ways to abuse this.
Or the magus can full attack then dimension door away. It's not like there aren't already working mechanics to do this kind of thing. The DD magus is a lot cheaper price to pay than reverse gravity spell plus ring of feather fall.
And if you are stepping in and out every turn, a smart enemy takes a 5' step further back so you can't keep using the reverse gravity field. Or given we are talking about very high levels with a reverse gravity in play the enemy is:
1) flying, and just sits in the middle part with a readied action to attack you as you drop past each turn while you can't attack back during your 'fall'
2) dispels your reverse gravity
3) Has their own means of feather falling
4) Nukes you with spells/SLAs when you are away, full melees when you are not.
5) etc.
Stepping into a river, over a cliff, into a pit are all situational dependent on having the right kind of terrain - that is all just part of using tactics and the terrain to your advantage. And none of those allow any kind of back and forth repeat effects (without using additional move/standards to reposition yourself to do it again).
I'm just laying out a few things - ultimately what you've described is a means of getting a full round melee attack while moving 500 feet in a round.
The point about edge cases is that just because one specific combo in one specific situation could do some weird things with the rules does not mean that isn't what the rules are. If a GM wants to make an in game call against something because they feel it is abusive, that is fine. But that still isn't what the rules actually are. (I nerf the spell icy prison to rounds per level instead of minutes per level, because at minutes per level its guaranteed death to any creature that fails its save - because you know, removing them from the combat wasn't already enough - but that doesn't mean the rules are 'wrong').
Additionally, full attacks and readied actions are incompatible with each other. So a readied action to 5' step, fall x distance, and attack is a single attack.
Of minor note, falling 500' feet and using a ring of feather fall is incompatible (father fall reduces fall distance to 60'). A spell caster could do it, timing the feather fall near the bottom of the fall - but the spell caster probably isn't wanting to get into melee range (depending on class and build). But they could of course fall 60'.
There are means of stopping ranged attacks that require little-to-no effort on the part of the defender. Cut from the air, or Fickle Winds, and bam. The Ranger is nullified.
And there are means of countering the counters. But as above, specific cases do not define the rules.
....Fighter steps in to cleave. Four rogues drop, flanking him from corners. 9th level, so 8 attacks with +5d6 sneak attack damage. Hell, giving them two kukris each. 12 attacks, +5d6 sneak attack damage. They'll probably miss some, but who knows - maybe they decided Outflank with a worthy feat to all have. Perhaps some crits will trigger additional attacks.
Again, readied actions and full attacks are not compatible with each other. But these same 4 high level rogues could each buy a potion of invisibility and accomplish the same thing. Or be hiding in the shadows of a dark room, or all have hellcat stealth and do the same thing. So as with Ryze scenario he made, there are already mechanics in the game that allow this exact sort of thing. This just becomes one more option to do what can already be done. An option that requires very specific terrain setups.
For me personally, I'd be more inclined to say a PC or NPC can do it if the action is benevolent (i.e. leaping to your own detriment to try and heal a fallen PC) than aggressive (like in the...
Which is fine from a narrative/story telling standpoint. But is inconsistent with the actual rules. (and we are here in the rules forum).
Yes, exactly. There are already mechanics in place for that. And it's going to cost you a Move Action, not a 5ft step.
Yes, exactly. There are already mechanics in place for that. And it's going to cost you a Move Action, not a 5ft step.
So falling now requires a move action? I don't think so. Falling requires a move action if I intentionally step off as ledge, but not if I'm pushed over the edge? Please provide the rules reference for that disparity.
Let me provide another example.
Let's say I'm standing next to pit that I am not aware of. At the bottom of the pit is a monster. If on my turn I take a 5' step on top of the pit, it opens, and I drop 60' (with a ring of feather fall) to the bottom of the pit. Would you still allow me to full attack the monster? (Or even without the ring, and I fall prone, could I still attack the monster at a -4 for being prone)?
Does your answer change if the pit is only 5' deep or 10' deep? Does it change if its 100' deep?
Or would you disallow the character being able to take a 5' step because doing so would result in them moving? (And you cannot take a 5' step in any round during which you move)
Player: I 5' step to here.
GM: You can't.
Player: Why not? Is there an invisible creature there? A wall of force?
GM: Nope, you just can't use a 5' step to move there, can't tell you why.
Is there somehow a difference between intentionally taking a 5' step into a pit, and uninentionally doing so?
That aside, the reason that falling wasn't initially considered an "action"...
Not only was it not initially considered an action, I'm aware of no actual rules that change that assumption. Falling is always a forced reaction to a character without flight having no firm ground beneath them, regardless of whether they put themselves in that position intentionally or not.
Ultimately the difference is between RAW and RAI. RAW seems to imply you can take a 5 foot step, fall, do a pirouette, land gracefully, and shank a person. RAI clearly meant for players to be able to react to unintentionally being forced to fall, not divebomb people for free.
I disagree that is a clear RAI.
If I'm on a 1' high ledge can I step off, fall 1', and still do an attack?
What if it's 2' high?
5' high?
10'? 20'? 50'? Somewhere in there you are making a subjective judgement call about what is reasonable and what is not. But that subjective call is going to change from GM to GM - so that's going to be very hard to pin down as RAI. I'd tend to agree with you that a 500' fall followed by an attack is not particularly realistic (never mind that surviving a 500' fall is also unlikely, or that magic isn't particularly realistic either). But given we are already talking about high fantasy actions, it does not break my personal sense of versimilitude beyond what a high fantasy setting already does. Any particular GM is of course free to rule in their own games how they want. But at the basic rules level a 5' step over a ledge does not require a move action, and does not count as movement against the creatures allowed, regardless of distance fallen.
Yes, exactly. There are already mechanics in place for that. And it's going to cost you a Move Action, not a 5ft step.So falling now requires a move action? I don't think so. Falling requires a move action if I intentionally step off as ledge, but not if I'm pushed over the edge? Please provide the rules reference for that disparity.
Let me provide another example.
Let's say I'm standing next to pit that I am not aware of. At the bottom of the pit is a monster. If on my turn I take a 5' step on top of the pit, it opens, and I drop 60' (with a ring of feather fall) to the bottom of the pit. Would you still allow me to full attack the monster? (Or even without the ring, and I fall prone, could I still attack the monster at a -4 for being prone)?
Does your answer change if the pit is only 5' deep or 10' deep? Does it change if its 100' deep?
Or would you disallow the character being able to take a 5' step because doing so would result in them moving? (And you cannot take a 5' step in any round during which you move)
Player: I 5' step to here.
GM: You can't.
Player: Why not? Is there an invisible creature there? A wall of force?
GM: Nope, you just can't use a 5' step to move there, can't tell you why.Is there somehow a difference between intentionally taking a 5' step into a pit, and uninentionally doing so?
That aside, the reason that falling wasn't initially considered an "action"...
Not only was it not initially considered an action, I'm aware of no actual rules that change that assumption. Falling is always a forced reaction to a character without flight having no firm ground beneath them, regardless of whether they put themselves in that position intentionally or not.
...
Ultimately the difference is between RAW and RAI. RAW seems to imply you can take a 5 foot step, fall, do a pirouette, land gracefully, and shank a person. RAI clearly meant for players to be able to react to
"Falling" isn't an action whatsoever, actually. But, if you're going to use "Falling" to move 500ft up in Reverse Gravity or down in normal gravity, then I'm going to require that you make a Move Action to step into the area you that you begin your "Fall", and not a 5ft step. Thou shalt not abuse the rule: You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.
If you move unintentionally after taking a 5ft step, it's because the DM is moving you via the environment or mook, not You moving you. There's a difference. I get what you're trying to argue for, and I'm not having it. It's flat out abuse of the 5ft step with fancy lawyer-ese reading and this is not even close to what the designers intended.
I think falling isn't part of movement. It is only being subject to whatever laws of physics apply in the universe one plays in.
If one denies a 5ft step followed by a fall as a readied action then why not apply it to the movement of the planet you are on?
Or what if on your initiative, the ground on which you and your opponent are standing turns out to be a platform that starts moving upwards further than your movement? Are you then limited to a 5ft step?
The rules are about intented movement.
Not that it's particularly relevant to everything, but you can ready a charge in PF1, it simply requires having the Rhino Charge feat.
...this is not even close to what the designers intended.
Are you certain on that? Because that is a pretty bold claim without any designer input on the matter.
Based on the general application of all rules, I think the designers intent is more along the lines of:
"Here is a general rule set to cover general cases. If a more specific edge case comes up, that's why you have a GM."
As a GM you think it is abuse, and that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. You feel it is a place in the rules that needs GM intervention, also fine. Certainly not RAW though.
For me as a GM, I don't have a problem with it. Magic already bends reality in far "worse" ways. Don't ever let it be said that I'm the one preventing martials from having nice things though :). As a GM I'm fine with letting characters in specific scenarios, or specific skill focuses, etc, emulate in those very rare circumstances things that magic is already doing easily.