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As discussed on Reddit and Youtube, the RollForCombat BattleZoo Bestiary kickstarter will feature a full dragon ancestry designed and written by Mark Seifter.
Needless to say, I'm stoked and want to talk about it!
Here are some details:
* The ancestry will be a full dragon, no halfsies, and balanced as a normal ancestry
* The powerful dragon stuff will be obtainable using Class Feats for balance reasons
* An example of a Class Feat locked ability was Draconic Frenzy
* It will encompass as many dragon types as possible, starting with the classics and adding more as funding and space allows (up to 39)
* This is a passion project of Mark's and something he's been wanting to do for a while
Now, for speculation:
1. Do you think it'll start as a small/medium wyrmling? Should that be an option?
2. What dragon stuff can fit in heritages and ancestry feats?
3. Will players need to obtain a dedication feat to unlock access to special dragon abilities to stay in-line with existing class feat choice expansion stuff?
4. Will shapeshifting be readily accessible?
5. What specific dragon abilities do you think just won't show up? E.G. Green dragon's Trackless Step and Woodland Stride? Specific reactions like red dragon's redirect fire?
6. How hard is it going to be to get a GM to allow these?
1. I'd guess medium but I could see it being an option
2. Probably legitimately everything. Ancestries have already set the resistance precedent, so I imagine a single chromatic heritage would cover a choice of resistance as part of the selection. Then of course ancestry feats like breath weapons base resistance for the energy type of said feats. At least that's my guess. Honestly dragons seem like one of the more formulaic ancestries to build based on monsters
3. Great question. One might argue dragon disciple helps there but I could see alternatives to that for sure
4. I'd wager the same as it is for other ancestries, maybe metallic heritages sooner than others
5. I'd hope nothing is off the table, but I'd mostly be expecting the broader strokes first so players can actually feel like dragons. I'd say attacks, resistance, other defenses and breath weapons are the most common, with of course certain heritages having commonalities among them
6. I think in general people have become more inclusive in terms of supplemental material because of PF2s design. In PF1 it was really easy to break things, which made splat books a real issue because one feat could change everything. In a brilliant move by paizo, even things over or undertuned are unlikely to cause issues at the table (within reason). And I think that's why the homebrew scene is so strong for PF2 and is why I think it's becoming more acceptable for people to allow supplemental material. I definitely use to be one of the gms that restricted books in PF1, but I legitimately don't think I'd ever turn away a player wanting to play any PF2 supplement if it was well designed and didn't cause issues. I would be shocked to not like something Mark designed, as it hasn't really happened yet (after all Mark essentially convinced me swashbuckler deserved a class as well as giving my dad and I Iron Man for a playtest run)
Can't wait to see it
Yeah ancestries can already get pretty close. I have a player lined up for Strength of Thousands who is going to be a dragon wyrmling as a reskinned Kobold. It's honestly pretty compelling.
Do you think age categories will be handled somehow? I'm toying around with the idea of a small or medium dragon at the very end of its respective age-band and handwaving the growth to the next step via an ancestry feat as them just crossing over the arbitrary line. Then people can decide whether or not to size up.
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Yeah ancestries can already get pretty close. I have a player lined up for Strength of Thousands who is going to be a dragon wyrmling as a reskinned Kobold. It's honestly pretty compelling.
Do you think age categories will be handled somehow? I'm toying around with the idea of a small or medium dragon at the very end of its respective age-band and handwaving the growth to the next step via an ancestry feat as them just crossing over the arbitrary line. Then people can decide whether or not to size up.
Age would be tricky, I'd imagine that it would be as you say with small and medium.
But come to think of it, they might start small as a means to prevent level 1 flight logistically with a level 9 size bump and wings being on the table potentially.
But not going to lie as restricted as flight is on current ancestries I feel like it'd be pretty hard to feel like a true dragon if I couldn't fly permanently until level 17
I agree that flight on ancestries is crazy late. Even sorcerers and barbarians get theirs around 10 and 12 which is better but would still leave 10 levels of a non-flying dragon.
Kind of hope they go with "flight for everything" from pretty early. I think they've been over-cautious with flight powers for ancestries. Just include a disclaimer or something of "easy access to flight trivializes some adventures. only use where appropriate." Let tables sort it out. Lemme be big lizard boi what flies.
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Kind of hope they go with "flight for everything" from pretty early. I think they've been over-cautious with flight powers for ancestries. Just include a disclaimer or something of "easy access to flight trivializes some adventures. only use where appropriate." Let tables sort it out. Lemme be big lizard boi what flies.
I kinda agree especially when we consider that familiars and flying summons are accessible from level 1.
If they balance it on the need for acrobatics checks until you get to a certain level (aka limit fly by attacks) that'd probably be fine.
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I wonder if there could be a system for limiting flight in a more satisfying way than the current "you're basically hopping with style until level 17"
Something like: You are physiologically capable of flight, but it's physically and mentally exhausting unless the conditions are right. At the GM's discretion, you can take advantage of wide open spaces, updrafts, and beneficial wind conditions to fly without issue. However, if you attempt to fly in narrow areas, close to structures, against the wind, while distracted by activity on the ground, while encumbered, or while concentrating, you can only manage short bursts to take temporary flight and must land at the end of your movement or fall.
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I wonder if there could be a system for limiting flight in a more satisfying way than the current "you're basically hopping with style until level 17"
Something like: You are physiologically capable of flight, but it's physically and mentally exhausting unless the conditions are right. At the GM's discretion, you can take advantage of wide open spaces, updrafts, and beneficial wind conditions to fly without issue. However, if you attempt to fly in narrow areas, close to structures, against the wind, while distracted by activity on the ground, while encumbered, or while concentrating, you can only manage short bursts to take temporary flight and must land at the end of your movement or fall.
This is more or less why I think making it an Acrobatics check for anything complicated or in an encounter would solve its own problem basically.
As you level and invest in your Acrobatic/flight skill the situation will sort itself out as to how often you can use it without the need for the GM to do much outside facilitate the check and the difficulty.
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If you wanted a little more rules-backing to it, you could even have an Acrobatics Skill Feat requiring Expert or something that frees characters from the need to check their flight.
I would not expect lvl 1 flying, it was said in the video that they want to keep at the same balance as the official content and considering that most people in that book are paizo designers...
Probably will put the special rules of the ancestry guide for those that want it at lvl 1.
Class feat wise it might be reduced to lvl 8 or 10 compared to the 13 of Strix.
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I find that special rule a bit unsatisfying. Instead of making the whole obtaining flight thing a smooth transition, it just throws up its hands and says "fine you can do it, but it's slow. whatever"
The more I think about the Midnightoker Acrobatics approach, the more I think it could work as an optional rules element. Almost definitely won't come packaged with Dragon Ancestry, as I'm willing to bet Mark will aim to have it align with existing ancestries as much as possible without requiring supporting optional rules.
I wonder if it could look something like:
_____________________
Take Flight <>
[Move]
Requirements You have functional wings but no fly Speed
You flap your wings in an effort to take flight. Attempt an Acrobatics check to gain a fly speed of 15 feet until the next time you land.
The Acrobatics check DC is usually 20, though the GM might adjust it based on the circumstances, such as adverse winds or tight quarters. If you’re an expert in Acrobatics, you can instead attempt a DC 25 check to increase the fly speed to 20; if you’re a master of Acrobatics, you can instead attempt a DC 30 check to increase the fly speed to 30; and if you’re legendary, you can instead attempt a DC 35 check to increase the fly speed to 60.
Critical Success You can move as part of the Take Flight action
Success You take flight
Failure You take flight, but you must end your next movement on the ground or fall
Critical Failure You fail to take flight
_______________________
Obviously just spitballing, but there are a ton of ways to tweak it. From the requirements, to duration, to DCs and tiers of success, to the flight speeds and bonuses for proficiency tier.
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Are we sure a PC with Dragon ancestry will start at 1st level? Or will they start at a later level, which 3-parts high level APs would suit well?
Though I guess it is simpler to start at level one and be a cute baby dragon. Who grows up real fast.
The Bestiary dragons would then be examples of PCs you can build with the Dragon ancestry and PC rules. Based on level obviously, not on actual age categories.
Heritages based on dragon types seem a given.
Aasimar dragon sounds great :-D
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I wonder if this Ancestry/Archetype hybrid is what they will use for the undead ancestries in Paizo's Book of the Dead.
Nope. Good guess, but this will be unrelated to that and is using some rules I built on my own at home over a year ago, before Book of the Dead was a thing.
Are we sure a PC with Dragon ancestry will start at 1st level? Or will they start at a later level, which 3-parts high level APs would suit well?
I don't think we know that for sure, but I definitely hope it is accessible at 1st level. I would be sorely disappointed if I couldn't play a dragon from 1 to 20. I love cute baby dragons!
I think it's plausible to move from Medium to Large in the span of an adventure time frame without getting too frisky with dragon aging lore. Like I mentioned previously, if it's a dragon right on the edge of its age category moving up a size might just be a matter of putting on those last few inches.
Going from Large to Huge seems... unnecessary for player size scales, and it also kind of steps on the age category lore unless you start large. I think it's doable, like having a ritual that lets you go on some kind of hyperbolic time chamber aging sequence that's risky and has side effects. Huge would be absolutely enough for me in terms of player ancestry achievable size.
Nope. Good guess, but this will be unrelated to that and is using some rules I built on my own at home over a year ago, before Book of the Dead was a thing.
Hi Mark!
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Hi!
I agree that you should be disappointed if you couldn't play an ancestry from level 1. You will be able to play the ancestry from level 1. Now, like it says on the tin, it's designed to be balanced so GMs can allow it with no worry (and my guarantee that if it causes issues for your game you can ask me on Arcane Mark and I will help troubleshoot), so it's not going to be the most powerful dragon around at level 1, but you'll be able to play it, and the ability to spend more resources to get stronger faster will let you outpace other ancestries on "ancestry-related stuff" if you want that a bigger part of your identity than normal.
Because with an elf, the design and replayability wouldn't be great if it was like "Oh, yeah elf barbarian and elf rogue and elf fighter all play fairly similarly because you mostly use all that elf stuff on a round to round basis and the classes only add a tiny amount" but with a dragon, you might want to opt into the situation of "Yeah, most of my selectable options are about being a dragon, not about my class...because I'm a dragon first." Plus works great with free archetype (and add ancestry paragon too for...even more dragon).
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Hi!
I agree that you should be disappointed if you couldn't play an ancestry from level 1. You will be able to play the ancestry from level 1. Now, like it says on the tin, it's designed to be balanced so GMs can allow it with no worry (and my guarantee that if it causes issues for your game you can ask me on Arcane Mark and I will help troubleshoot), so it's not going to be the most powerful dragon around at level 1, but you'll be able to play it, and the ability to spend more resources to get stronger faster will let you outpace other ancestries on "ancestry-related stuff" if you want that a bigger part of your identity than normal.
Because with an elf, the design and replayability wouldn't be great if it was like "Oh, yeah elf barbarian and elf rogue and elf fighter all play fairly similarly because you mostly use all that elf stuff on a round to round basis and the classes only add a tiny amount" but with a dragon, you might want to opt into the situation of "Yeah, most of my selectable options are about being a dragon, not about my class...because I'm a dragon first." Plus works great with free archetype (and add ancestry paragon too for...even more dragon).
Thanks for the insight! That's good to hear. It sounds like a very good way to go as dragony as feels right for your character. I know I have some dragonling characters I want to play as essentially a "baby" dragon from 1 to 20; a competent adventurer that just happens to be a dragon. Other character concepts are "as close to being just a dragon out of the monster manual as possible".
I intended on making this thread to avoid pestering you for details you probably can't share, but I do wonder if you wouldn't mind speculating on whether this "class feat powered ancestry" approach might make it's way into official Paizo ancestries in the future if it goes well. I don't know how IP or things might work.
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That is... actually cool enough to make me strongly consider adding our first pf2e third party rulebook, like damn, I have at least one player who would be over the moon. Right now we haven't been looking much, since we all use Pathbuilder.
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That is... actually cool enough to make me strongly consider adding our first pf2e third party rulebook, like damn, I have at least one player who would be over the moon. Right now we haven't been looking much, since we all use Pathbuilder.
According to the video, Mark is hoping this will be a gateway book for 3rd party usage in many groups. It makes sense, moving from 1st party to 3rd is a big step, but once you've done it once, you can expand from there. Personally, I feel like it's working on me already, because I'm mentally preparing to accommodate this book and planning to tack on Midnightoker's Specialized Familiar rules while I'm at it.
Also, the RollforCombat team is trying to work with HeroLab and VTTs about including these books, which would go a looong way.
Strength of Thousands as a scaly friend would just be tops, I think.
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I was thinking, it might be nice to rank the features of a dragon that are most important to hit in an ancestry in order for that ancestry to feel satisfyingly dragon-like. I think it's also useful to sort by which level these things need to come online, since I think everyone can reasonably allow the powerful stuff to come later even if it's pretty important, just for balance reasons.
The pool of core dragon features (before factoring in special things like cloudwalking or smoke vision) is something like:
* Looking like a dragon
* Flight
* Breath Weapon
* Elemental Resistances
* Bite
* Claw
* Tail attack
* Horn attack
* Wing attack
* Size
* Darkvision
* Scent
* Frightful Presence
* Innate Spells
* Sleep and Paralysis Resistance
* Spellcasting
* Draconic Frenzy
* Alternate Breath Weapon
* Draconic Momentum
At minimum, by level 1 I need to have:
1. Looking like a dragon
2. Bite
3. Breath Weapon
At level 1 I should at least have the option to take:
4. Darkvision
5. Elemental Resistance
6. Claw Attack
By level 5 I want to also have access to:
7. Flight (even if it's restricted for balance)
8. Scent
By level 10 I want to also have access to:
9. Frightful Presence (even if it's restricted for balance)
10. Sleep and Paralysis Resistance (whatever form that takes)
11. Draconic Frenzy
12. Innate Spells
13. Spellcasting
14. Large size
15. Tail attack
16. Draconic momentum
By level 18 I want to also have access to:
17. Unrestricted Flight
18. Huge Size
19. Alternate Breath Weapons
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I like that list, at least for the start. Thanks for it.
Now I think we should be able to create any Bestiary Dragon with this kind of progression, so it might need some rearrangement.
And also taking into account 3.5 and PF1 dragons to see which abilities should be available at which level.
Maybe with feats that you can take to get some abilities earlier.
It would be very neat to see a creature like a Dragon be both an ancestry and a "class" at the same time. It would provide some untreaded ground that, if done correctly (which it looks a step in the right direction), could be awesome and unprecedented in this genre.
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It would be very neat to see a creature like a Dragon be both an ancestry and a "class" at the same time. It would provide some untreaded ground that, if done correctly (which it looks a step in the right direction), could be awesome and unprecedented in this genre.
Maybe not unprecedented, given that Elf used to be a class and race! But yeah, I'm excited to see how this version plays out, if there are enough ancestral class feats to take up all 10 slots, it could be quite close to being a full class already. It would just be a matter of seeing the appeal of going the rest of the way after people try it out.
I do think it could make a lot of sense in a number of powerful ancestry scenarios. Dragons are perfect, given how much baggage they have, but powerful Fae, demons and angels, vampires, and warforged could be suitable as well.
They did this in the Libris Mortis and the other monster books too, Vampire was 8 levels of a "Monster Class" that granted all of the benefits of a vampire when you reached the 8th level.
The fact that the Dragon Ancestry offers a sort of "built-in" archetype for more Dragon abilities is basically the same concept applied to PF2s leveling system. Clever one, but I'm not sure I'd call it whole-sale untreaded ground.
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I think there are going to be tons of interesting revelations with this book. What is the minimum acceptable level for permanent flying? What is the top speed- 70, 100, 120, 200(probably not the last)? What auras is a PC allowed to have (quite a few ancients have permanent damage auras)? How ludicrous is the ancient red dragon really? How hard is a lvl 20 black dragon PC going to style on his ancient counterpart from the bestiary? So many questions...
Anyway, I'm apparently blind, because I didn't notice this thread, so this one will be a bit longer. I love speculating about this ^^
(1) Age/leveling
The differences are probably smaller than for humanoids, but there should be quite a bit of variation in terms of competence even for dragons. The bestiary entries are just a vague guideline - which is quite obvious due to the fact that most of them have custom statblocks. So I don't think it is too weird for a young-ish (18-25 years) dragon to be a level 1 adventurer. The disconnect will be a bit greater for casters, but it should still work. Not everyone was born a Kazovon or Susurex, after all.
And if humanoids can go from nobody to basically a demigod in a matter of months, I don't see why dragons can't do that. With how closely they are connected to magic, this should be even more plausible, if anything. You wouldn't even need to visibly age even when you become bigger, though that should absolutely be an option to some extent.
(2) Size
I'm pretty sure we are going to start with a choice of medium and small. Both for letting you participate in most adventures and balance. Because larger dragons all get more reach, which I expect to translate here.
For large and huge, I expect things to largely follow the giant barbarian model, but one "tier" later and without clumsy. Large as a level 8 archetype feat with +5ft reach, huge at 14 with +10. Gargantuan comes at 18 and with +15 ft reach. I doubt the claw reach will lag behind even at large, though, simply because it isn't really necessary and really inconvenient.
To make this actually playable, I would look at Change Shape, which many players will want to pick up for your social humanoid form at level 1 anyway. If you can change both your shape and size, it wouldn't make sense if you couldn't just reduce your size only. Easy level 5 ancestry feat (requiring lvl 1 feat humanoid form)- One action, choose from any of the sizes you have available. If you want to be really nuts, add tiny for hilarious pocket dragon shenanigans. Potential "exploit" right there - stay next to a piece of small but solid piece of cover, dragon's breath and turn tiny - free full cover :D
(3) Unarmed attacks
These are going to be tricky. Being able to deal all three regular physical damage types at will is pretty strong, though not that strong. Die size is also a potential problem. When doing some work on a dragon path for a shifter-type class, I had the unarmed attacks as core part of the class, but here? They would have to be strong enough to be considered worthwhile for a full martial and be available either innately or very, very early.
Maybe a solution similar to a class-archetype? Need to take another feat at level 2, but get unarmed attacks as benefit at 1?
What we basically need:
- d10/d8 jaws with reach
- d8 tail with backswing and reach
- d6 agile claws
And those realistically need a single die size increase later on to stay on brand, for a feat of course. I see a couple of feats improving these in general.
(4) Flying
I definitely see the optional "flying at 1" rule coming. Permanent flying will be 13 at the latest (as Strix), I expect a 12th level archetype feat, though. Anything lower than 10 seems unlikely to me, but all of this is extreme speculation, as we don't know the true "this is ok now" point here.
What will be interesting is when we get the higher fixed speeds (if higher than Speed), rather than one based on your Speed. Because all dragons, even the slower imperials, have vastly higher flying Speed than land Speed. I'm pretty sure 120ft Speed is the upper cap we'll get if even that. Because damn is speed strong. But, you know, dragon form gets it, so you never know :D
(5) Breath Weapon
Probably the easiest thing to solve. The innate base version will probably not be too hot (heh), probably like Kobold Breath. Upgrade as a 4th feat level to dragon eidolon version. Another upgrade at 10 for the big boy version. Something like that.
(6) Generic dragon abilities
- Darkvision is ancestry feature
- Elemental resistance is part of the heritage, immunity is either not present or an optional rule
- Draconic Frenzy at 6th or 8th (depending if draconic momentum gets integrated like in the eidolon)
- Coiling Frenzy is a bit stronger, so probably 8th
- Frightening Presence at 14th (but gets same effects as Demoralize to get there - being passive and aoe alone is extremely strong)
- Scent is a level 1 ancestry feat (see Animal Senses)
- Sleep/Paralyze get some feat with a circumstance bonus (though eventual immunity is possible, if unlikely)
- innate spells will be the usual ancestry feats
- humanoid form is a level 1 ancestry feat
- no idea about draconic momentum
- AoO and similar abilities (twisting tail and whatnot) at level 6
(8) Martial / Caster split
I expect there to be a base dragon archetype that you get purely by having the ancestry, but there is going to be a rather early split into two additional, smaller archetypes - martial dragon and spellcaster dragon. Or Buff and Puff the magic dragons, hehehe. Like level 6 or 8 quick, with the same idea as the hellknight archetypes. The martial dragon will have access to the Frenzy abilities and upgrades for your unarmed attacks. The spellcaster one does the usual multiclass spellcaster archetype thing, but probably with a tweak or two, maybe somewhat limiting spells based on heritage.
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Ok this took a while and is quite enough for today. Damn this is exciting stuff!
Sleep is for the weak apparently... anyway.
What less universal generic dragon abilities do you will be made available to most/all heritages?
Wing Deflection is basically slightly more premium Nimble Dodge, so that one seems obvious, as seem Tail Lash and/or similar abilities once brought down to AoO levels - for the base version at least (hello Disruptive Stance :D)
But there are a couple of very rare abilities that I think are an excellent fit. The more extreme one is Perfected Flight, taken form the ancient sky dragon. Here is an example of what it could look like:
Perfected Flight - Feat 18
[Uncommon][Archetype]
Prerequisites: You have a fly Speed
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You have perfected the art of flight and can stay in the air completely without effort. You can hover in place without spending an action, and automatically succeed at all Acrobatics checks to Maneuver in Flight.
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A far less powerful, but at least equally flavourful ability I have taken from the same creature, but adapted more heavily:
Divine Breath
[Archetype]
Prerequisites: You follow a deity and are good or evil
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As a dragon who worships a deity, you channel divine power through your dragon's breath, making it more effective against certain types of creatures. If you are good, any damage dealt by your Breath Weapon becomes good damage against fiends and positive damage against undead. If you are evil, the damage becomes evil damage against celestials.
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To anyone who is still here and not over in the General Discussion frenzy, welcome to my TED-Talk - This time: Ancestral weapons!
We already know that dragons can theoretically use weapons and armour, many just don't for (usually) reasons of tradition and whatnot. So it would make sense that at least a few inventions have been made over that time. More likely than not they would also have been immediately named by their inventor... after themselves. Naturally.
Shargarius' war claws: These ingenious weapons were envisioned by the great Shargarious, Vanquisher of the Terrible Curse of Lead. They consist of a flexible gauntlet that protects the dragon's hands and fingers. From the knuckle onwards, the claws themselves are each covered by a rigid, long, scythe-like blade. Unfit for handling delicate goods.
Flail of Warsilish: A series of metal rings interconnected by flat metal chains crafted by Warsilish the Indomitable. Worn over the tail and usually connected to armour, the metal rings greatly enhance the tail's impact force while offering some additional protections. Specialised version with modified rings exist, featuring everything from mace-like flanges over axe blades to alchemical shaped charges.
Thurilex's Thunder: A highly innovative and experimental design by Thurilex the Insane during his stay in the Mana Wastes. A combination of a warhorn and what is essentially a pair of siege-cannons that is installed over the dragon's shoulders. The dragons breathes fire into the horn, which is linked to the cannons via various segmented pipes containing several trademarked alchemical fluids. The concluding semi-fluid mass ignites the powder in the cannons and, if the apparatus hasn't melted by this point, expels everything out of the barrels with great vigour and nearly sun-like heat.
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I hope there's a way to play a strength based dragon with no armor. I really want to be able to rely on my scales!
I hope there's a way to play a strength based dragon with no armor. I really want to be able to rely on my scales!
Animal Skin (feat 6 barb) gives us a good first indicator of what we can expect here. Scales of the Dragon (feat 4, Dragon Disciple) also exists, but is affected by the resistance that is also in there and Dragon Disciple is one of the rather underpowered archetypes anyway, so maybe isn't the best benchmark.
The young/adult bestiary dragons almost universally use the high AC category, which is roughly the equivalent of a non-champion martial using heavy armour. Pretty much what Animal Skin does for the Barb. Balance-wise this will probably have to wait till around level 6 or 8-ish, though I don't know how "expensive" the proficiency increase in Animal Skin is vs the AC. I would hope for a 4/2 (bonus/dex cap) solution without proficiency shenanigans, though, even if it takes a little longer to get online. Some dex investment seems fair for not having the speed penalty.
A feat for non-heavy armour "natural" armour should be much less expensive at like level 1 or 2, as that is a pretty small advantage. Basically just some advantage in "smuggling in" armour into restricted sections, but if people know you are a dragon (or something along those lines) and still let you in... I think you are good. And ofc the "you get ambushed at night without armour" scenario, but that is so situational and rare that it shouldn't affect the power budget too significantly.
Now, the first problem is certain casters, as the only proficiency they get is unarmored. Scales of the Dragon seems at first glance to indicate that a full +5 AC isn't in the cards before you get to 20 DEX, but then again the Sentinel Dedication exists, which proves the opposite to a certain extent. So I'd say this should be fine, proficiency will keep the current balance.
Monks and future classes that start with unarmored expert will need some reigning in, which will require some clever phrasing, but should be doable.
Lastly, armor runes. Because after we went through the trouble of not wearing armor, we don't want to go right back to having to wear explorers clothing or bracers of armor for the runes. That would kinda defeat the point. The easiest solution here would be to create new items that work like explorers clothing or bracers, but just reflavoured. Instead of clothing, you get an armband or big, fancy jewelry that provides the same benefits, but fits the dragon's sensibilities more. Personally I would prefer it be one unified mechanical thing rather than the armour rune/talismans differences between explorers clothing and bracers, because I find those rather silly.
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You can read the original in the AMA thread under my block of questions - that's pretty much 99% of the questions about the ancestry right there XD - but here is a somewhat brief summary of the new info. Keep in mind that all of this is very early WIP stuff and as such subject to change.
(1)The biggest reveal was the ritual that allows a dragon the be an adventurer like regular humanoids and gives us an in-lore reasons for the mechanical differences. One thing the ritual does is that it takes that "potential" of living for millennia and becoming insanely powerful and just directly injects all that into your body right now. This allows you to get to that insane power as fast as regular humanoids, but has some downsides, as your magic really, really doesn't like that. And since magic is very important for such intensely magical creatures, some regular dragons abilities don't work quite as well - immunities, for one, is something you no longer have.
(2)Flying
At minimum the strix progression - hopping at 5, 10min/day at 9 and permanent at 13. Might be enhanced by archetype feats. Plus sidebar for optional unbalanced version.
(3)Abilities
Most dragon abilities, including those only specific dragons get, will make it in. Quite a few will obviously need some substantial mechanical changes to be converted to fit a PC, but conceptually you should be able to do most if not everything your bestiary counterpart can do.
(4)Ancestry gear
Dragons won't have ancestry weapons per say due to the fact that a very substantial part of dragonkind - probably even the majority (this is pure speculation on my part) - isn't really into anything that base and crude. The natural draconic form is perfect and all that jazz.
[AN: I made an error in using the words "ancestry gear", what I should have asked is if we get dragon-specific gear. But it was right before bed and I wasn't thinking too well, so well. However, I think it is still pretty safe to assume that we will get at least a bit of stuff here. It just makes a lot of sense that the dragons that actually use gear would have thought to customize it to fit them.]
(5) Martial/caster split
Unlikely to happen in any significant way, if at all, at least in regards to non-casters taking dragon magic feats. No comment on casters taking martial dragon feats, but it is reasonable to assume the same idea applies. Martials can't compete in regards to DC and slots, casters can't compete in regards to attack modifier, AC and HP. Basically the natural balancing factors at play just like with regular archetypes.
(6) Number of Heritages
We have one more dragon heritage confirmed, meaning we now have an even 40. It will come in the accompanying AP, Jewel of the Indigo Isles, and be completely new, meaning it doesn't exist in the PF-Universe.
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You can read the original in the AMA thread under my block of questions - that's pretty much 99% of the questions about the ancestry right there XD - but here is a somewhat brief summary of the new info. Keep in mind that all of this is very early WIP stuff and as such subject to change.
(1)The biggest reveal was the ritual that allows a dragon the be an adventurer like regular humanoids and gives us an in-lore reasons for the mechanical differences. One thing the ritual does is that it takes that "potential" of living for millennia and becoming insanely powerful and just directly injects all that into your body right now. This allows you to get to that insane power as fast as regular humanoids, but has some downsides, as your magic really, really doesn't like that. And since magic is very important for such intensely magical creatures, some regular dragons abilities don't work quite as well - immunities, for one, is something you no longer have.
(2)Flying
At minimum the strix progression - hopping at 5, 10min/day at 9 and permanent at 13. Might be enhanced by archetype feats. Plus sidebar for optional unbalanced version.
(3)Abilities
Most dragon abilities, including those only specific dragons get, will make it in. Quite a few will obviously need some substantial mechanical changes to be converted to fit a PC, but conceptually you should be able to do most if not everything your bestiary counterpart can do.
(4)Ancestry gear
Dragons won't have ancestry weapons per say due to the fact that a very substantial part of dragonkind - probably even the majority (this is pure speculation on my part) - isn't really into anything that base and crude. The natural draconic form is perfect and all that jazz.
[AN: I made an error in using the words "ancestry gear", what I should have asked is if we get dragon-specific gear. But it was right before bed and I wasn't thinking too well, so well. However, I think it is still pretty safe to assume that we will get at least a bit of stuff here. It...
Really glad you were asking questions! I was in the middle of my game and badly wanted to ask all of these
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No problem ^^.
I was really glad that we didn't only get the answers about mechanics, but also about the design ideas and lore behind some of it. Such as the ritual or the fact that immunities are so rarely used because it removes any player engagement from that particular part of the game. I always appreciate insights like this :)
Edit: I nearly forgot (was in the ENWorld interview) - there will also be a sidebar that gives ideas how to convert the balanced dragon into a less balanced version in general, not just flying.
Edit 2: While looking through the other questions, I also found:
You won't be able to start as Large, but will have the ability to grow.
Mark is also considering a versatile heritage that are planar-scion-esk "dragon scions", but that part is not guaranteed to make it in.
Change Shape is, unsurprisingly, confirmed to make it in as an option.
Abilities unique to a given dragon family can be any type of feat, including archetype feats for the more spicy options.
Mark definitely has his work cut out for him just by the pure number of heritages. Many don't have that many unique abitilies, so they could be done in like 2 or 3 unique feats. But given that there is going to be at least 40 of the little buggers and there are heritages like the blue dragon or imperial dragons who require at least 4 or feats... boy howdy XD.
This is the place where the black dragon can shine for the first time - one whole unique feature :D (I somehow can never pass up an opportunity to get a dig on the black dragons in... they are just so sad :D)
And we just got confirmation that going oldschool natural - only good ol' tooth, claw and scales - will be made possible. Though not explicitly stated, you will still need certain supplementary items for runes and the other usual stuff, though. Still, sounds good!
And sorry for the spam, I managed to just miss the edit window :/
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I'm still so freakin excited about this. I feel bad about not hyping the other parts of the RollForCombat kickstarter, but I've been craving to play an actual dragon for so long.
I like the flavor of the ritual method, it helps gloss over the differences between normal dragons and adventurer dragons in a more satisfying way. I'll likely play up how culturally different a dragon who does that ritual is from others of their kind, in the same manner as how freakishly strong and risk tolerant adventurers are compared to normal humans.
I'm really considering using the "Ancestries that should be able to fly, can." rule along with my upthread suggestion of only being able to when it's appropriate and favorable until higher levels.
I'm not particularly fussed about dragon-specific gear. In fact, I like the push and pull between relying on your natural dragon power and compromising to take on varying levels of artificial aid. I think stuff designed specifically for dragons muddies that unnecessarily.
I liked Mark's comment about immunities actually being less engaging. Like, if you are immune to all fire damage you just ignore it and move on. Abilities that reduce it require more brain space, and abilities that give you some bonus from receiving it are even more dynamic.
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And we just got confirmation that going oldschool natural - only good ol' tooth, claw and scales - will be made possible. Though not explicitly stated, you will still need certain supplementary items for runes and the other usual stuff, though. Still, sounds good!
And sorry for the spam, I managed to just miss the edit window :/
I am thinking we could use the monster parts system to enhance dragons' natural attacks with the parts of monsters they have killed.
From this, I considered sleeping on their hoard as a means for a dragon to siphon the magic from their treasure's items to their natural attacks. And when the dragon dies, the magic goes back to the item.
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And we just got confirmation that going oldschool natural - only good ol' tooth, claw and scales - will be made possible. Though not explicitly stated, you will still need certain supplementary items for runes and the other usual stuff, though. Still, sounds good!
And sorry for the spam, I managed to just miss the edit window :/
I am thinking we could use the monster parts system to enhance dragons' natural attacks with the parts of monsters they have killed.
From this, I considered sleeping on their hoard as a means for a dragon to siphon the magic from their treasure's items to their natural attacks. And when the dragon dies, the magic goes back to the item.
There absolutely have to be some hoard-related ancestry feats, that's just too precious (heh)!
Magic of the Hoard - Requires you to have spend the rest before your daily preparations sleeping on a pile of valuables and any items you want to use for this. During your daily preparations, you can invest any items that you slept on, even if it normally doesn't require investing (such as weapons). You gain the effects of any runes on those items and maybe even obtain certain statistics from them (AC/Dex cap from armour, die size and traits from weapons.. etc.). [Might have to make it so the items are temporarily absorbed to avoid some shenanigans and definitely some restrictions in regards to what runes/statistics you can be affected and so on, but this could totally work!]
Soothing Hoard - Instead of your usual Refocus activity, you can spend 10 minutes contemplating your fortunes on a pile of valuables of a certain minimum value. Also reduce the values of certain conditions within limitations (such as reducing doomed, sickened and fatigued once per day or something).
A huge dragon nuzzling a suit of full plate armour like a pillow is just hilarious XD
Wow, not shipping to the EU at all is really a downer. I was really excited for this, but that is a disappointing slap in the face. I guess that is $139 you're not going to get from me.
It would be easy to bypass all the customs stuff if you were to just ship books without any stickers, pins, or dice bag. Only that stuff is affected by custom fees. Books are not.
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The Kickstarter is open, everyone! And over half funded, too :D
And yeah, we have a bit of a bummer in that there is no shipping to the EU. Good thing that was more of a support thing for me - my games are all completely digital anyway. I spend over 100$ anyway, so I'm still pretty happy with my contribution ^^
What's up with these “savings”? The single Bestiary PDF is $25 or $39 for the hardcover, that's fine, but “savings” $50 for the PDF and $96 for the book?
Are you indicating that the PDF alone will cost $75, and the book $135 after the campaign? That doesn't make any sense.
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Stephen told me he did research and contacted folks and that something is changing with EU shipping and media mail that would make it different than it had been, and he knew that you used to be OK with just books. Take that as you will, I don't really have a direct connection to the business side, I just write dragons and monster parts.
Here's what he said on Reddit:
"We are looking into it. The issue with the EU currently is that VAT, fees, taxes, and so many other fees are making shipping more expensive than the cost of the product itself. This is actually going to affect ALL Kickstarters in the next coming months/years to the EU, so hopefully either the EU adjusts their laws to be a bit more Kickstarter friendly, or we will be talking to EU-based partners and see if we can work something out.
Do stay tuned as this is a new development that was just implemented in the EU last month and we are watching it closely."
He also linked the following which he said had more information.
https://www.easyship.com/blog/new-vat-tax-eu
https://www.shippingschool.com/news/new-vat-rules-are-coming-to-the-eu/
https://blog.stamps.com/2021/06/21/shipping-to-eu-new-vat-rules-starting-ju ly-1-2021/#:~:text=Goods%20valued%20at%2022%20euros,subject%20to%20VAT%20an d%20duties.
https://www.fedex.com/en-us/eu-vat.html
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Wow, not shipping to the EU at all is really a downer. I was really excited for this, but that is a disappointing slap in the face. I guess that is $139 you're not going to get from me.
It would be easy to bypass all the customs stuff if you were to just ship books without any stickers, pins, or dice bag. Only that stuff is affected by custom fees. Books are not.
It is not the thing about books, which is old and well-known. It is a completely different and new thing.
Check for yourself : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_3098
I found out about it this morning when I had to pay 9€ to get my latest AP part, where previously I never had to pay anything. Since the book's price was 18$, that makes an unexpected 50% increase.
So I thought it extremely thoughtful to see the EU-specific part in the Kickstarter.
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What's up with these “savings”? The single Bestiary PDF is $25 or $39 for the hardcover, that's fine, but “savings” $50 for the PDF and $96 for the book?
Are you indicating that the PDF alone will cost $75, and the book $135 after the campaign? That doesn't make any sense.
You need to consider the price of the whole package, including the digital pack ;-)